Looking For an Experienced CC3/FT3 User

[TheFoolSfC]

Hello,
I am Looking for an experienced CC3 and FT3 user to help me with my potential purchases. I am enticed buy some of the bundle option and would like to know if anyone is experienced with the World Builders bundle. I have additional questions concerning Disc or Download. Call me old fashioned but I like books on the shelf and discs in the drive. But it seems when I test run the shopping cart there is only a download option?

[Mark Oliva]

Hello,
I am Looking for an experienced CC3 and FT3 user <SNIP> it seems when I test run the shopping cart there is only a download option?

That's right. There no longer is a disc option, only download sales online.

[Straf]

I think of updates as improvements to a particular major version of a piece of software whereas going from one major version to another is an upgrade.

In this sense updates are usually free for a given period of time (e.g. 12 months, or for the length of a support contract). I'd expect an upgrade to cost from anywhere between 50% to 100% of the full price of the new version.

[Mark Oliva]

I think of updates as improvements to a particular major version of a piece of software whereas going from one major version to another is an upgrade.

In this sense updates are usually free for a given period of time (e.g. 12 months, or for the length of a support contract). I'd expect an upgrade to cost from anywhere between 50% to 100% of the full price of the new version.

I wouldn't argue with that. It's basically a vocabulary issue. Some folks cover everything with update. Some folks distinguish between update and upgrade. The important thing is for a new user to understand what he/she doesn't get free.

[Straf]

The word 'free' is a bit of a funny one as well. It could be argued that updates are included in the original price, i.e. they've already been paid for. But yeah I agree that a potential purchaser should know what to expect from their purchase. It's not always clear.

What I said earlier doesn't apply to games. The times I have opened up tech news sites and read about disgruntled gamers complaining about DLC. Players being able to boost their in-game currency with real world currency so that they can buy better gear in-game seems to be quite common, and a common gripe. I kind of agree with the gripes for MMOs. I've noticed with a few applications now that you don't purchase the software (or a licence to use it) but a plan and that features of the package can only be unlocked by paying more. It would be most irritating to be working on a video only to find that the final render into the format I want is a 'value added feature' that costs an extra $100. So yes, it is extremely important for a user to know what they're getting but it is also important for the vendor to ensure that the customer's expectations are realistically managed.

Sorry, I'm barging in on a thread about PF products, with my general opinions, that I have no knowledge of. From what I have heard, though, PF are the type of software house that bends over backwards to ensure that their users and customers get the best experience possible out of their software. And if they can't do it someone else, a veteran user, will come along and help. It's a symbiotic relationship that only benefits everyone. Maybe Adobe and MS ought to take note

[ladiestorm]

Hey there!

I also use the profantasy products, and may be able to give you an opinion on the bundle you are looking at. Now when I first made my purchase, I bought just the top three. However, I have recently gone back and purchased Fractal Terrains, so I have the equivalent of the World Builder Bundle. And Mouse and Mark are correct that it is no longer available in disc form, only in download form (from what I can find).

Now, whether you want the World Builder bundle, or whether you want to start with the top three (or any combination), really depends on what you are trying to do. You can make world type maps with CC3+, although most would say it's best suited to regional or continental mapping. I have been working on a couple of world maps using CC3+, and they are coming along quite nicely. City Designer works for anything from small villages to grand Capitol Cities, and Dungeon Designer is mainly used for dungeons and floor plans... although, depending on what you want to do, some of my villages and towns have actually been made using Dungeon Designer 3.

Fractal Terrains is a separate program from CC3+, where as City Designer and Dungeon Designer require CC3+ to run. You use Fractal Terrains to create more realistic world maps, topographical maps to be more specific. Fractal Terrains takes many things into consideration when building a world... such as weather, rainfall, altitude. You do get more realistic looking maps... HOWEVER, you can not take a world map you made in FT and just plug it into CC3+. There are some conversions that need to be done.

The bottom line is this. These programs do not function the way photoshop and other mapping programs work. You need to be prepared to spend some time learning how to use the product, otherwise you are going to be disappointed. This isn't a program that you can install, open up, and start making amazing maps immediately. There are tutorials that come with the products, and I highly recommend you take the time to work through them, so that you know how the program works. There are also youtube tutorials you can watch and work through in a pinch. My first map was made about a week after I bought my bundle.

My opinion, and it is just that, is to get the top three, and also get the Tome of Ultimate Mapping. Go through the general tutorials, then spend some time with the Tome to REALLY get a handle on how to use the products. You can always go back and get Fractal Terrains once you understand how the others work, because Fractal Terrains doesn't work like the other three.

[Mark Oliva]

I also use the profantasy products, and may be able to give you an opinion on the bundle you are looking at. <SNIP>

Excellent. Good roundup!

I have been working on a couple of world maps using CC3+, and they are coming along quite nicely. City Designer works for anything from small villages to grand Capitol Cities, and Dungeon Designer is mainly used for dungeons and floor plans... although, depending on what you want to do, some of my villages and towns have actually been made using Dungeon Designer 3.

I would just add that a number of RPG game masters also have found DD3 to be a better tool than CC3+ alone or even CD3 for making battlemaps at a scale of one square = 5 feet/150 cm.

[Mark Oliva]

Going back to the start of this thread, the original question had to do with what the posting guild member, a new CC3+ user, should buy. I believe that the question already has been resolved for the original poster, but other areas of discussion still relevant to the thread have been opened that may be of importance to others thinking about buying CC3+, perhaps along with some of the add-ins.

A key element necessary to provide a single person with the right answers lies in the question what one wants to do with this new tool.

There is an impressive variety of members here who are into cartography for a wide range of reasons, some of them diametrically opposed in intent and goal.

There are many people here who appear to make maps simply because they enjoy doing it. Their maps have no real purpose. They were just made for pure enjoyment. People in this group probably provide the maps that are the biggest graphical masterpieces and most of the maps that the rest of us find most inspiring. People in this group might want every mapping-related add-in that ProFantasy offers if they choose CC3+ as their mapping tool ... simply because it gives them the widest choice of cartographic options that ProFantasy and CC3+ can offer.

Other people here make maps to illustrate books or role-playing games. If these cartographers also are the authors, they can look and see which ProFantasy add-ins provide the tools that they need to make the kinds of maps they want. If they're working on commission, the specifications of the author and/or publisher may decide that. Those mapping in the 20th or 21st century probably want CC3+ and Symbol Set 3. People mapping for science fiction or outer space material probably want CC3+ and ProFantasy's Cosmographer.

Game masters who run role-playing games make up a big part of the membership base here and a big part of ProFanatsy's user base (according to ProFantasy). The recommended software depends upon the kinds of maps the game master wants to make for his campaign. If he or she wants to make only overland maps, CC3+ alone could be quite sufficient. If the game master wants to make dungeon plans, Dungeon Designer 3 (DD3) is the perfect choice. It contains a lot of tools that are not available in other ProFantasy products for making classical fantasy RPG dungeons. Likewise, if one wants to map cities, villages, etc., City Designer 3 (CD3) is just about necessary. The basic tools for mapping cities aren't in CC3+ or the other add-ins. A game master running an outer space or science fiction campaign might have all that he or she needs with just the combination CC3+ and Cosmographer.

However, when one canvasses various RPG mapping sites, I think one will find that the two most common types of game master maps are dungeon plans and encounter battlemaps, including battlemaps in cities. Many game masters also will argue that DD3 and not CD3 is the best add-in for both because of DD3's object alignment abilities, full compatibility with the OGL 3.5 5-foot/150-cm spacing system (also used in Dungeons & Dragons 5E), etc. Those elements are not a part of CD3.

Everything opens in CC3+, so you don't have to faff around opening separate windows and moving things around just to swap between DD3 and CD3, for example. You just click a button and CC3 changes mode.

Many CC3+ users would disagree with this argument. When one clicks a mode icon, one gains access to symbols belonging to another product category. However, for many users it is a big problem that the abilities associated with the map template chosen at the time one begins making a map and the drawing tools that are loaded do not change with with a click onto another mode icon. Nor is it easy to change a template once one has begun. There has been considerable discussion about this issue on the ProFantasy forum for a number of years.

I prefer CD3 (which has a global sun that automatically shades the rooftops of the building symbols.

The global sun is a CC3+ feature, not a CD3 feature. If one has CC3+, one has the global sun. If anyone doubts that, check ProFantasy's Tome of Ultimate Mapping, where one will find that CC3+ uses the global sun for a number of operations of its own that are not related to CD3.

[Mark Oliva]

Updates are free.

This is partially correct. Until now, ProFantasy always has updated a specific product free. For instance, CC3+ now is on Update 16, and all 16 updates have been free.

However, updates to new versions are not free. As an example, the update from CC3 to CC3+ was not a free update.

[Mark Oliva]

That's because CC3 and CC3+ are two different programs.

Everyone certainly is welcome to his or her own opinions on this point.

However, for someone new, where this thread started, it's probably a good idea to know which updates are free and which cost you money. Don't let people confuse you on this point, if it's important to you.

ProFantasy's program named Campaign Cartographer has gone through many versions, starting with CC for DOS and continuing with CC2, CC2 Pro, CC3 and now CC3+. These all are versions of a program called Campaign Cartographer. Each time a new version was released, ProFantasy offered licensees of the previous version an update (in their own words) to the new version at a reduced price, which pretty much is standard software business and more a reason for praise rather than complaint, just to make clear that I intend no complaint or anything else negative here.

ProFantasy has said that there will be a CC4. If ProFantasy does business like it has in the past, it no doubt will offer licensees an ability to update (ProFantasy's own description) from CC3+ and perhaps even CC3 to CC4 at a reduced rate. You might want to call this a big update or a version update, but it might be important to understand that it costs something. It is not free.

However, in terms of customer service, ProFantasy also offers version updates, and to date these have cost nothing at all. CC3 was updated 11 times, and each of these 11 updates cost registered users nothing. The current version of Campaign Cartographer, CC3+ has been updated 16 times already, and these updates cost nothing, but they are updates of a specific version, not updates to a newer version.

A potential buyer also should know that ProFantasy goes above and beyond your average level of update service. When the CC3+ version of Campaign Cartographer was released, ProFantasy revised almost all of its CC3 add-ins to make them compatible with CC3+, and registered users could and can download the compatibility updates free of charge. ProFantasy deserves some kudos for that. I know of many software purveyors who would charge a few pennies for that service.