Should I? Shouldn't I? Need advise from professional commissioned mappers

[ladiestorm]

J.Edward just brought a recent thread to my attention (thank you, J!), that I admit, has me a little(okay, a lot) overwhelmed.

In the mapping requests forum, there is a request for world, regional, and battle maps for an RPG book. This would be a work for hire, paid commission. He listed 5 or 6 examples of map styles he was interested in, or at least he said the maps could be of similar styles to the examples he listed.

J.Edward brought it to my attention, because one of his examples...is the Merydyan map I just completed for the May/June Lite Mapping Challenge. This say that I'm shocked and amazed is the understatement of the century!

I'm sitting here, and part of me is extremely tempted.to contact this gentleman. The rest of me...okay, I'll admit it.. part of me is terrified. I've been making maps for 4 months... Is that enough experience to try something on this scale? He's asking for professional quality maps. How am I supposed to determine whether my maps are professional quality?

And then there's the paid commission. I would have to negotiate a fee for doing this, and I haven't the vaguest idea how to go about pricing my maps. As a crafter, I have an idea on setting prices on things I've made... I count the cost of materials, factor in his long it took me to make it, then do a 25-50% Mark up to reach a profit. This is obviously different. The materials are my creative imagination and my computer. I won't have any idea how to account for my time, because I won't know how much time it takes until after I'm done. And I'm not like those of you who have been doing g this for years... so how do I determine how much my time and effort would be worth?

I'm hoping some of the professionals will help me figure this out... I can't deny it's a major opportunity!

[J.Edward]

This is always a complicated thing. And it's that way for everyone who does it until it becomes familiar.
Some things that differ here - with many companies in the game industry, they have an amount that they are shooting for.
They won't tell you this amount. You have to guess, in a sense, what they may be willing to pay. Or you have to determine how much you would do it for.
There are some generalizations regarding prices in the games market - like what are averages and such.
They may pay more for one person, because they really want that style of map, and less for another.
But, they may not pay more, even for really awesome work - they have a fixed amount in their mind and won't budge.
It all depends on that particular client.

Each of us has been turned down by various people because they don't want to pay a certain amount.
Sometimes that amount is a decent and fair cost for the amount of work.
Evenso, some still won't go above a certain amount, even if that amount is not really a fair price for the amount of work.
This is what we all negotiate with all the time. Some will underbid, just to get the work and the client.
That is actually counter-productive in my opinion. It also keeps the ceiling low for everyone else, but that's another matter entirely.

Some people are faster and can do a certain amount of work in a shorter time, and as such can charge less and get the client.
There is a lot that goes into it all. It's not an easy formula and as such there's no set answer I can give.
If a map takes you ten hours, and you want $10 per hour, then the map would be $100.
If you want $20, then it's $200. That is one way to do it.
But what if that map is going to take you 50 hours.... will a client accept you charging them $500-1000? Probably not.
But I might be able to do that piece in 20 hours and still charge them $500-1000, and I might get it. Depends on whether they really want my work or not.

I've often found, that when a client just wants any map maker to fill a job that they will usually be low on cost and won't pay well.
When a client really wants a certain style or a specific artist, they usually pay better because they are after something specific.

Others may have some more input they can give you. I hope some will respond. This has always been so arcane and secret.
It is hard for people to learn how to proceed if no one will tell them anything.
In any negotiation, always remember to respect yourself and your time and abilities.
If a dollar amount is insulting for the amount of work, it's okay to be insulted.
Illustration rates haven't improved much in 30-40 years.
It's always a struggle until you're well known and more importantly, well connected.

If you have any more specific questions, I can try to answer them.
There's no risk in trying either. Think of a price you'd like to make for the maps and give it a shot.
It always starts with a risk and a step forward.

[Korash]

J.... And I'm not like those of you who have been doing g this for years... so how do I determine how much my time and effort would be worth?

I'm hoping some of the professionals will help me figure this out... I can't deny it's a major opportunity!

LS, I believe that you gave yourself the answer right there. I am FAAAR from being one of those professionals that you are directing these questions to, but what I have gathered over the many moons here at The Guild is that:
a - If he is using one of your maps as an example of the style he is interested in, then I believe that you would be able to meet, if not exceed, his requirements with very little trouble.
b - On setting a price, figure out how long it took you to build the map he is citing...and put a price to the time. Take into account that doing something in a style that you already know (hopefully ) would be faster the next time round..and that most people are not gonna pay hundreds of dollars for a digital map...sad but true...
c - How long you have been mapping has, in no way, any bearing on the quality of you maps....The time and effort you put into the mapping has ALL to do with it (I cite myself as a perfect example of time NOT equaling skill). I believe that in the citing of one of your maps, you should feel qualified to at least put yourself forward for this, and possibly other commissions.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Midgardsormr]

I count the cost of materials, factor in his long it took me to make it, then do a 25-50% Mark up to reach a profit. This is obviously different. The materials are my creative imagination and my computer. I won't have any idea how to account for my time, because I won't know how much time it takes until after I'm done. And I'm not like those of you who have been doing g this for years... so how do I determine how much my time and effort would be worth?

Estimates are hard to get right. Even those of us who have been pros for years (I'm not a pro cartographer, but I am a digital artist in my day job) have a hard time accurately estimating how long something will take. So don't sweat that too much. Come up with a ballpark figure, then inflate it somewhat because things always take longer than you expect. The "Scotty factor" that was recommended to me once was to make my estimate, then double it, then add 10%. If you unexpectedly get things done faster, you can always reduce your invoice and make the client very happy. If you wind up estimating too low (and you will), you'll likely have to eat the cost. But that's fine when you're starting out and aren't depending on the work to survive. Everybody makes a few bad deals while they're figuring things out.

Anyway, when figuring your materials cost, plan on your computer having a useful life of 3 years. Estimate a percentage of your time you spend using it for work, and multiply its value by that percentage.

For example, 20% of my personal computer time is spent on "work" projects, either freelance or professional development. I purchased it for about $2400, so the share of that value that I need to cover with my freelancing is about $480. Spread that out across three years, and figure a reasonable estimate of my freelancing hours to be about 120 hours a year (about three weeks' worth, which would be a pretty strong year for me these days). So $480 / 360 hours means I should add $1.33 to my hourly rate to cover paying for my computer. There's a similar calculation for other pieces of gear, like my Wacom tablet and my small office server. Since I usually only need software for a brief period, I often rent it and just charge that as a line item on the invoice: $35 for Adobe After Effects, $10 for Dropbox, and so forth.

I have a spreadsheet I used to calculate my rate back when I was freelancing full-time. If you're interested in it, you can download it from my website here: Freelance Rate Calculator. It accounts for the salary you want to pay yourself, overhead like electricity and Internet access, software, hardware, profit, and the number of weeks you work to arrive at an hourly rate.

[ladiestorm]

Okay, there has been quite a bit in the way of.pricing...that helps...but I'm also trying to figure out if my maps.are of a professional quality. What determines quality in a fantasy map? Or an artistic map for that matter?

J.Edward, it must seem like I'm picking on, or zeroing on you, but let's face it, you've done commissions for places like that castle resort in Ireland! Some of your maps(some? Try most or all!) Could be framed as art! Granted...you are.using a totally different program, and I'm sure you've hand drawn quite a few.maps.as.well, and I can definitely see the quality in your work, and I am no where near your level...

Wow, I'm actually babbling. Let's try this again... Is there any industry standard for what constitutes quality in what we do? Beyond making sure rivers are in the right place and mountain ranges fall.where they should, and the desert.makes sense where it is, etc? If I don't put a decorative border around my map, does that mean it isn't of professional quality?

[Mark Oliva]

Why not just do it? If the customer doesn't like it, he/she won't buy it, but you still will have added to your own skills along the way. Whatcha gonna lose?

[J.Edward]

I agree with Mark. There's really nothing to lose.

I once thought those same sorts of questions. To answer, no. There really isn't a standard.
Each client probably has some idea, in their head, of what 'they' believe to be 'professional' but no one can know what that is.
Best thing I can say is that your map was given as a reference of what they would be looking for.
That's pretty much like an open invitation.

There are all sorts of styles of maps in the game industry and even the book industry.
There will be some that are beyond your abilities right now, and some that may not be a good fit for your style atm. But that applies to many of us.
There are commissions that are not a good fit for me either. There are illustration commissions that may be beyond my skills atm.
It's no different. We all walk on the same path - some a little further down that path, some just setting a foot on it.

I'd say it has more to do with whether you 'want' to give it a try, rather than do you have the skill.
The challenge you just did and completed within that time frame should tell you that you can do it.
Give it a try. If you need help with something message me or whoever might best be able to answer your question.
It can be stressful but very rewarding too.

[ladiestorm]

"Never let the fear of.striking out keep you from playing the game." It's a quote.from one of my favorite 'feel good' chick flicks( I don't have too many if those).

My husband reminded me last night, that I went through this same agonizing circular thinking before I published my first book. The fear of failing has always been my worst downfall. Followed closely by lack of self esteem...

He told me that if I failed, I won't have lost anything but the time I put into it....but if I succeed, I will have gained a lot. So I emailed the gentleman last night, and told him I would be interested in talking to him about it. I guess we will see what happens...

[Josiah VE]

Well, I don't think there's any harm in trying, he did link your map as an example after all so your maps are good enough for him.

I just started taking commissions a few months ago, and I've only done a few. For my firsts ones I did under $100. I feel a lot more confident now than I did a few months ago, and will start charging a bit more.

However I noticed that he said the commission was taken, was that from you?

[Tonnichiwa]

That's good to hear Ladiestorm. Just to give you a little bit of help when it comes to wondering if your stuff is professional or not. Since you are using cc3 and cc3+, remember that it is made on a program that uses fastCAD as its base system. Cc3 and cc3+ are the only professional quality software specifically designed for making maps that I know of besides the software used for GIS type maps. If you are proficient in that software enough to have people wish to buy what you make, isn't that close enough to being professional? I would think so.

In most fields, to be a professional requires an accredited degree. But there is no college or university that I know of that gives a degree for making fantasy maps. So in this case, I would have to say, if you make something someone is willing to buy, and you are using professional quality software to make those things because you have developed the skills well enough to make those products, isn't that basically the same thing as what an accredited professional degree holder would have to do as well?