What is Ki?

[Gamerprinter]

Rather than further derail the D&D 4e Verdict thread, I thought I'd carry this question to a new thread. My last two posts in the 4e thread discussed this as it regards the D&D game.

One of the arguments on the Gleemax boards regarding the differences between Ki and Psionics. In that Ki is spiritual power, whereas Psionics is mental power. Since in western thought the mind and body is one and inseparable until death, the idea that Ki could be considered the same thing as Pychic power, it shouldn't matter to the game, that's really the same thing.

The flaw in that argument is in the orient, everything has Ki in it. Every rock, plant, sentient, nonsentient, organic and inorganic, even manufactured goods has Ki within it.

Ki is spirit energy, however its the spirit in all things not just the individual.

The belief in Ki (or its other names: qi, chi, prana, etc.) is strongly tied to oriental martial arts, yoga, and other eastern disciplines. It's derived from Taoism/Daoism which has influenced most of the oriental world before Buddhism and other oriental beliefs. Its related to medicinal treatments in pre-modern times (and still practiced today.)

Rocks don't have brains therefore can't be psionic, thus Psionics and Ki has nothing much in common.

Enough of my ranting - any thoughts on this?

GP

[Nomadic]

I would have to agree. I am taking Ki Aikido so I have begun to truly understand what ki is (as an aside ki and chi are not the same thing). Ki is everything, the energy that connects each thing to every other time. The reason it is used in several martial arts (aikido uses it the most of any art) is because when you are able to extend ki you are aware of not only any opponents but also of yourself. When you can do that you are able to prepare and execute the moves necessary to stop any attacks and turn them back around on your attacker.

[Nexis]

The problem I have with the use of Ki is as you say it is a concept of the East. The monk and Ki should not have been lumped in with the rest as the game is Europen based. The monk and Ki should have been put in an Oriental supplement book. Then it would have been placed in a better context.

[msa]

The problem I have with the use of Ki is as you say it is a concept of the East.

Bear in mind that I've never cared much for psionics and I'm only passably interested in Ki. With that said, I'm with Nex mostly. I haven't been keen on the monk class in any edition of standard D&D and I think it belongs purely in eastern supplements.

I always saw ki as the ability to focus your mind through meditation to gain control over your body and sense (and to some degree control) the world around you.

Like psionics, the root of the power is in meditation and mental state. So, in that sense, the power source is internal and mental--its not based on physical muscle memory, mastery of arcane rituals, or connection with the divine. Its really all internal and about a state of mind.

Also the manifestion to me appears very similar. Psionics grants you powers over all manner of things that don't have minds. You can open doors, sense nonliving obstacles, start fires, walk on water, redirect energy, remote sense, or other things often associated with ki. Now, psionics lets you do a lot more, but to me it includes most of the 'ki' powers.

To me, the differences between the two are fairly minor. To someone who is really into one or the other, you can split a lot of hairs. I think of the discussion as to whether rocks have ki but not minds as one of them. Does it matter much as far as where the ability comes from or what it lets you do?

As to whether ki and chi are different? Thats sort of like a discussion about whether protestants and catholics are different. If you are really into either of them, you probably think they are completely different. If you aren't, you probably see the differences as minor at best.

[Karro]

So, my thought on the Ki/Psionic differentiation:

Given that rocks have Ki energy, but no brains, therefore possess ki power but not psychic power, the question that immediately pops in my mind is: can the rock, of it's own will, actually do anything with its ki energy?

Since it has no brain, and therefore no will of its own, the answer, I suspect, is no. This leads me to suspect the difference between an eastern interpretation of ki energy and a western interpretation of psionic energy is mostly academic. Only things that can think can actively use and manipulate ki energy. Only things that can think can actively use and manipulate psionic energy. The effects of the use of the two are frequently similar. What's different is the terminology and the flavoring: one is very eastern and one very western.

Considering that terminology and linguistic usage can often strongly color our perceptions of a thing, it's not surprising that it's not entirely clear whether the two are different or the same.

[Nomadic]

As to whether ki and chi are different? Thats sort of like a discussion about whether protestants and catholics are different. If you are really into either of them, you probably think they are completely different. If you aren't, you probably see the differences as minor at best.

Just because someone unaware of what ki and chi actually are thinks they are a very similar thing does not make them a very similar thing. Basing definitions of things on something someone who doesn't know the definition says sounds a bit silly.

Roughly speaking Ki is the connection everything has with everything else. It has nothing to do with whether something is natural or not. Everything has ki, nothing has it more than anything else. It is an energy of sorts but not what most think of when you say energy. It is more an energy of extension or awareness.

Chi is connected to the elements. Fire, Water, Wood, Earth, and Metal. It deals with the flow of energy within the body and between the body and everything else and how to use the flow of energy in regards to those elements.

The only thing that the two concepts have in common is that when you use them they allow for a meditative state of mind. Even that though is different. Ki meditation is more about awareness and acknowledgment of everything which makes it good for martial arts. Chi is about that flow of energy and is more effective at more traditional meditation, the calming of mind and body and release of stress.

The More You Know

Anyhow Chi is very spiritual and could make for an interesting background to a character. A cleric in the form of an eastern religious monk would be cool. Ki i good for the monk in the concept of a martial fighter. And yes I think the monk should have been an oriental supplement.

[msa]

Just because someone unaware of what ki and chi actually are thinks they are a very similar thing does not make them a very similar thing. Basing definitions of things on something someone who doesn't know the definition says sounds a bit silly.

Roughly speaking Ki is the connection everything has with everything else. It has nothing to do with whether something is natural or not. Everything has ki, nothing has it more than anything else. It is an energy of sorts but not what most think of when you say energy. It is more an energy of extension or awareness.

Chi is connected to the elements. Fire, Water, Wood, Earth, and Metal. It deals with the flow of energy within the body and between the body and everything else and how to use the flow of energy in regards to those elements.

Well, I have an academic understanding of both, as well as a lot of other details about various religions and philosophies. Its just, as a non believer, these differences seem minor at best.

Like... your descriptions? Very little difference between the two. Its like if you tried to explain to me how very different believing in the holy trinity is vs. believing in god. I just have to take your word for it... looks like apples and apples to me.

[msa]

As to whether ki and chi are different? Thats sort of like a discussion about whether protestants and catholics are different. If you are really into either of them, you probably think they are completely different. If you aren't, you probably see the differences as minor at best.

This was an effort to bow out of any discussion that belongs with believers, and not non-believers like me. And, to be honest, if I hadn't been called ignorant (which I'm afraid is very pejorative), I would have. And I am going to try to bow out for good after this last thought.

The Chinese ideogram (at least... one of three acceptable alternate ideograms) for "chi", or in modern pingyin "qi", is identical to the Japanese ideogram for "ki". It also has a Korean analog "ji". This character is used to refer to the primal energy in aikido, taoism, quigong, and a host of other eastern philosophies and religions. While each philosophy, I'm sure, has a different interpretation of it, its the same character and the same word pretty much universally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

Oddly, it is not the same "chi" in "tai chi". "Tai chi" is properly short for "tai chi chuan", which means supreme ultimate fist. "Chi" in this context means "ultimate". While "chi" by itself has little meaning, the term "tai chi" is a term used in taoism and confucisonism to represent the unification of yin and yang. However, many practices of tai chi also refer to and focus on manipulation of "qi", using the same ideogram and meaning above.

All right... Good luck to all of you.

[Gamerprinter]

For me only, I'm not religious at all. Not to say I'm an athiest, because I'm not, however, I don't treat religion as all that important to me.

When I started this discussion, I hadn't intended it to go down the religious road. At the same time the treatment whether a religion or system of beliefs in game should be taken serious by the characters, or players in a roleplaying sense - not that players should actually belief in this or that. However if the characters don't take these beliefs serious, to me at least, the suspension of disbelief fails and the game is lessened somehow.

One skewed idea of mine is that psionics is science fiction, though I enjoy reading science fiction and have played sci-fi RP games (traveller, space opera) in the past. I don't do so today, and my fellow gamers in our group would never play those games. We like fantasy, because we already live in modern and future is just too close to modern for our tastes.

Perhaps because I separate sci-fi from fantasy as a distinct hardline, I don't want psionics to intrude in my fantasy game - which is probably at the heart of my dislike at "how much Ki is like Psionics and how it doesn't really matter." And why the decision to drop Ki in 4e and put psionics in its place, is so hard for me to deal with.

For me it does matter. Keep the force of Star Wars away from my elves and samurai. I don't play Star Wars RPG and don't want to bring its baggage into my fantasy game.

As a DM, I've never allowed psionics to even come in play. When a player asks for a psionics character, I say "no, I don't allow it. There is no such thing as psionics in my worlds." (My mind flayers are mind flayers and not Illithidae.)

I'm sorry that the discussion has become so serious and heated.

GP

[Steel General]

OK I'll throw my 2 cents in with my own screwy definition(s) as relates to RPGing;

Psionics - Using the power of thought to affect/manipulate the world around you

Ki/the Force/etc. - Using the innate (spiritual) energy in all things affect/manipulate the world around you.

Not sure there is a correct definition - though you probably could go to a dojo and get the resident master to define Ki/Chi/etc. for you.