"Tolkien’s Map and The Messed Up Mountains of Middle-earth" Article at Tor

[Galendae]

In Tolkien's defense, the Maps he is getting pilloried over he did not create. Pauline Baynes was the Cartographer of the map being bashed. Christopher Tolkien, (Son) was also responsible for some of the early Cartography.

Granted, Tolkien did do some basic Cartography too, especially early on. Hobbit series for instance and some early Silmarillion stuff.

The part of Tolkien's map that I have issue with is where the Entwash (Ondollo River) meets Anduin, on the Rohan border. The river is shown as a Delta meeting a larger River (Anduin). Is that even possible? I understand the concept of Braided Rivers, but this seems much bigger than that.

[waldronate]

The part of Tolkien's map that I have issue with is where the Entwash (Ondollo River) meets Anduin, on the Rohan border. The river is shown as a Delta meeting a larger River (Anduin). Is that even possible? I understand the concept of Braided Rivers, but this seems much bigger than that.

It should be possible, but it probably wouldn't be stable for very long. You'd need a flat area where Entwash is forced to expand out, but you'd also need a resistant ridge along Anduin to keep Entwash from reverting to a single channel. The Okavango delta in Africa is an example where a single river forms a delta inland and then reverts to a single river lower on ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okavango_Delta also lists a couple of other places where this sort of thing happens).

[Galendae]

More on the map in question. One of the most important ephemeral artifacts on Tolkien.

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...-of-the-rings/

[Falconius]

Lol Falcons, I know it's a critique of the map, and not the man, and believe it or not, I'm not taking it personally.

But it is a personal pet piece of mine, carried over from my school days, when we had to take perfectly good, enjoyable stories and pick them apart to find the hidden symbolism, the hidden meaning, the hidden agenda the author left behind. I was the one that always spoke up and asked 'cant the story just be a good story?'

My thoughts on the 'issues' of Tolkien's map, would be to wonder if it was deliberate. After all, the map that Tolkien made, in the story of the Hobbit, was actually made by Bilbo Baggins. I don't know what Bilbo did originally in the Shire, but I bet he wasn't a cartographer. So it stands to reason that his map might be somewhat flawed. Frodo's too.

Yeah, I'm sorry for being so rude.

It's a good point that the map was created by characters in the story, as it makes a lot more sense then. Especially the unmapped parts behind Morodor etc. It definitely has a story map sense, as in it was created with people who've heard things rather and people who've done a bunch of surveying, as Straf points out.

[ladiestorm]

I didn't think you were being rude, hon...I thought you believed I was being over zealous in my arguments.

[Mark Oliva]

Let's also avoid again that overwhelming temptation to argue that things in a fantasy world of one's imagination need to play by the rules of this real world in which we live. Such arguments won't produce maps that are better in graphics, but they certainly will diminish fantasy to no one's gain. Everyone has a right to bomb Prof. Tolkien's maps to one's heart's content, of course, but I have yet to see such a bombing produce anything of value. The bombings come and go, but Prof. Tolkien's work remains. That should surprise no one.

[Falconius]

Obviously no one is arguing that (except perhaps the guy in the article? But it's been a while since I read it). Elements in fantasy works which are just wrong often shatter the suspension of disbelief however, and so it's a good idea to endeavour to avoid that. As such it is always about finding a balance between fantasy and reality that works for that story(which is why the latest season of GoT didn't work for me since they threw away that worlds balance). I think a fairly good maxim for helping achieve that balance would be: Make things as they would be in reality, unless you intentionally mean them not to be.

[ladiestorm]

You know, that's something that has always puzzled me... the notion that you shatter the suspension of disbelief, if you create a map that doesn't adhere to the standards of reality. I mean, taking Tolkien's work for example, who really believes that anything that happened in the Hobbit, or Lord of the Rings could really have happened in real life? We already KNOW this is fantasy. It's fiction. That's part of it's appeal.

Being a writer by nature, I'm an avid reader. Fantasy is one of my favorite genres. Anytime I've ready a fantasy that has a map.of the world in it, I've studied the map so I can get an idea of the journey the characters go through. I've always appreciated the artistry, and the imagination of the author. I've never lost faith in the story because the map didn't meet reality standards. Most people don't... Most people don't have a cartographer's background, and therefore don't KNOW that 'rivers don't split' and 'mountain ranges don't look boxy'.

Bringing the discussion back to Tolkien, when I look at his map of Middle Earth, I realize right away that this isn't a map of our Earth, because there is no area on the map that meets with up our world.... no recognized continents or regions. It may be called Middle Earth, but it isn't Earth. This doesn't make the story any less 'real' to me.

[Falconius]

I was speaking in a general sense, as Mark's comment was more general than the direct topic at hand. I can see why a geologist can have his suspension ruined by bad maps. My problem with maps and books though is that quite often the book doesn't match up with the map or vise versa. I generally feel that this is because the author wrote the book without making a map and so things get all screwy, and then some poor soul has to try and make a map that works after the fact. Such situations don't ruin the "suspension" for me, but they do annoy the hell out of me. Tolkien's map is and example of the right way to do things actually, he had a map, and the stories make sense within the terms of that map. When you can follow Bilbo on his journey on the map at the front, that is part and parcel of the story, and it's great. And saying that, it is perfectly simple to come up with a corollary where for some people a bad map can ruin the story.

[Redrobes]

Quotes from Tolkien...

As for the shape of the world of the Third Age, I am afraid that was devised 'dramatically' rather than geologically, or paleontologically.

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century) of midden-erd>middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumene, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by enchantment of distance in time.

If it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region...I hope the, evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known as 'pre-history'. I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not loveable with the love of blood-kin.

The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.

So I think its a given that it was a fantasy based on Earth but at a different time to any known written history.