Commission: Alternate Cold War

[Sapiento]

Nice map Sep, you are the go to guy for modified earth.

As I recall, all Europe could have become Mongols if not for Genghis returning home due to a single man's death. He had to go back to elect a new leader. By the time he could return to the area Europe had established a number of technologies that would have prohibited such an invasion. (Castles, Knights, etc). I'm going from lame memory so don't bother trying to quote any of this.

It's quite questionable it the Mongols could have conquered Europe. With every mile the drove westwards the number cities, castles and people increased and the Mongols were good in cavalry fights and open plain battles, not sieges.

[Gamerprinter]

It's quite questionable it the Mongols could have conquered Europe. With every mile the drove westwards the number cities, castles and people increased and the Mongols were good in cavalry fights and open plain battles, not sieges.

Just some points of clarification regarding the Mongols. The Mongols nearly did conquer Europe - they were extremely skilled at Siege Warfare. The Mongols learned siege tactics when they invaded China, which is arguably their first major invasion. They would have never succeeded to making China a Mongol state, had they not learned siege tactics. The Chinese threw gunpowder bombs from the castle walls, which the Mongols adopted and added into their siege war tactics. Mongols created siege machines and batterring rams.

The Mongols battle tactics included all of the following: large masses of trained mounted troops - the Mongols had armies of 50,000 to 100,000 fighters when they invaded any land, including Europe, Mongols were experts in siege tactics, Mongols campaigned during the winter months (because much of the steppe is mush when its warm, which makes it bad for horses) while most European armies campaigned in the summer, Mongols themselves were self sufficient (they could hunt and forage for their own food) - whereas European armies had to be fed or would disband, the Mongols cut supply and communication lines, the Mongols used fear tactics to bring chaos to the civilized populations.

Really the only thing that stopped the Mongols from making Europe a Mongol state (as they had done to Russia) was their own laws which dictated that when the Khan in the homeland died, everyone had to attend the funeral - which is what happened to save Europe, the campaign ended and the horde returned thousands of miles to attend the Khan's funeral. Since the next Khan did not view the conquest of Europe on his agenda, Europe was saved.

While its certainly true that the bulk of the Mongol army consisted of mounted archers, they did use combined arms and specialized fighters such as siege specialiists, as part of their overall military superiority. Mongol battle tactics were more than just a horde of mounted bow shooters - they were military masters.

Just wanted to clarify some common misconceptions about Mongols and their battle tactics.

GP

[Sapiento]

Just some points of clarification regarding the Mongols. The Mongols nearly did conquer Europe - they were extremely skilled at Siege Warfare. The Mongols learned siege tactics when they invaded China, which is arguably their first major invasion. They would have never succeeded to making China a Mongol state, had they not learned siege tactics. The Chinese threw gunpowder bombs from the castle walls, which the Mongols adopted and added into their siege war tactics. Mongols created siege machines and batterring rams.

The Mongols battle tactics included all of the following: large masses of trained mounted troops - the Mongols had armies of 50,000 to 100,000 fighters when they invaded any land, including Europe, Mongols were experts in siege tactics, Mongols campaigned during the winter months (because much of the steppe is mush when its warm, which makes it bad for horses) while most European armies campaigned in the summer, Mongols themselves were self sufficient (they could hunt and forage for their own food) - whereas European armies had to be fed or would disband, the Mongols cut supply and communication lines, the Mongols used fear tactics to bring chaos to the civilized populations.

Really the only thing that stopped the Mongols from making Europe a Mongol state (as they had done to Russia) was their own laws which dictated that when the Khan in the homeland died, everyone had to attend the funeral - which is what happened to save Europe, the campaign ended and the horde returned thousands of miles to attend the Khan's funeral. Since the next Khan did not view the conquest of Europe on his agenda, Europe was saved.

While its certainly true that the bulk of the Mongol army consisted of mounted archers, they did use combined arms and specialized fighters such as siege specialiists, as part of their overall military superiority. Mongol battle tactics were more than just a horde of mounted bow shooters - they were military masters.

Just wanted to clarify some common misconceptions about Mongols and their battle tactics.

GP

Surely true to some point. However I think it would nevertheless be very hard for them to conquer all of Europe. I'm sure the pope would have soon declared a crusade and this would have mobilized half of the continent.

I'm sure we could discuss this endless.

[Ghostman]

Contributing to thread derailment

Just some points of clarification regarding the Mongols. The Mongols nearly did conquer Europe - they were extremely skilled at Siege Warfare. The Mongols learned siege tactics when they invaded China, which is arguably their first major invasion. They would have never succeeded to making China a Mongol state, had they not learned siege tactics. The Chinese threw gunpowder bombs from the castle walls, which the Mongols adopted and added into their siege war tactics. Mongols created siege machines and batterring rams.

I thought they simply "recruited" Chinese and Persian siege engineers and dragged them along on their campaigns, rather than make their own stuff. But I cannot claim expertise on this matter.

Mongols themselves were self sufficient (they could hunt and forage for their own food) - whereas European armies had to be fed or would disband

All steppe nomads (not just Mongols, but pretty much everyone that practiced that lifestyle: Scythians, Alans, Magyars, Huns, Turks, Bulgars, Xiong-Nu, Khitans...) were able to live off the land, because they derived their livelihood from massive herds of livestock that moved along with them. But this was only possible while on the steppe, because it takes sufficient tracts of pasture to actually feed all those animals. When ever operating on less suitable terrain, they'd adjust their logistical means. Hunting and foraging can NOT feed a large army for long, that is simply impossible. Nomadism CAN, but depends on availability of pasture.

Mongols definitely had the capacity to operate outside of steppe; their success in China, Persia and the Middle East proves this without doubt. That does not mean that they could just ignore logistics while in these places, however.

Really the only thing that stopped the Mongols from making Europe a Mongol state (as they had done to Russia) was their own laws which dictated that when the Khan in the homeland died, everyone had to attend the funeral

The timing of the Khan's death certainly was critical. And (in)convenient.

Since the next Khan did not view the conquest of Europe on his agenda, Europe was saved.

AFAIK it was more that the new Khan didn't have the power to truly reign in his subjects, who now viewed each other as their primary rivals and enemies. The Mongol empire was by then only nominally unified, being de-facto split into smaller states.

Not that Europe had ever been very high up on the Mongol's agenda, what with being a rather poor and backwards area. Especially compared to the lucrative targets of Middle-East, Egypt and India...