Yeah, thanks, that's what I've been doing, just spelling out the important stuff in email exchanges. But in the end, that's "just" an email, not a legal document.Originally Posted by TimPaul
As for registering the copyright, that seems like overkill when it costs so much (US $55 minimum), so I haven't done that yet. My gut feeling has always been that I don't expect to have any further use for a map I create for a game or novel, and it takes the same amount of time to create it whether I retain the copyright or include it with the finished map, so I'm surprised at the people who charge so much extra for the copyrights to a map.
Twice I've read a manuscript before making a map, but only because I really wanted to read the story, not because I felt I needed to. In one case, I did uncover some inconsistencies in the story when I compared it to the sketch map I had been given (points A, B, and C were in a line, and the story stated that the characters would stop off at point C on their way from A to B. The locations were rearranged on the map to be A, C, B).
Still another time I was asked to read a 500+ page story and invent the map from the story. For that, I asked extra money, and in the end lost the commission (but the person who got it did a far better job with that particular map than I could have anyway, so it was ok).
I actually love working with the clients to create the world. Most of the time they have certain things that have to be in place, but I often add or suggest additional stuff for added flavor, and it's always appreciated and usually used.
A court will recognize an email exchange as intent of purpose. So it's not the best protection as a contract, it is still enforceable.
Just use contracts if you are worried. The trick is to explain how the contract protects both sides, and ensures both get what they are looking for. Otherwise it comes off as one sided.
It's $35 a single image, and $55 for a batch of images. Tax deductible if you are claiming what you are paid on your income, so not over kill. You can even sneak the cost of registering into your fee, if you normally charge say $400, now your price is $435.
It's not JUST about if you will have another use for it or not. I won't, because the maps I create for books contain IP information, names, places and such, that is owned by the author. But if don't retain your copyright, you can't get more money down the road. In general, most of the books I do maps for, get about 2-4 language editions. That means if I get $800 for the map, I get another $400 each time the book is translated. Generally, German, Polish, French, Italian and Spanish. So for one map, there's the potential for 2-4 times the original price.
With games, they tend to want to own the rights, so I don't do as much game work as I do novels.
When you give away the right to your work for low pay, companies start taking advantage of that. It's bad for you, and set a bad standard for companies to follow.
You don't have to register your work to have copyright protection. You have the moment you create it. You just can't get legal costs back if you need to sue. When something you create goes public, you have a 3 month grace period to file the work. During that time, if your work is violated, you get the full protection of the law, even legal compensation (provided you register in that three month period). So every 2-3 months, batch register your work for the $55.
This is the information I found:
and given the nature of what we are discussing, I assumed that last clause applied.On May 1, 2014, the fee at the copyright office was increased to $ 55 for most applications. The fee is still $ 35 if your application has one author, the author is also the owner, you are just registering a single work (not a collection of photos), and it was not a work made for hire.
Thanks for the ongoing conversation as this stuff can be daunting when you are starting out. Most of us want to make art, not mess around with legal mumbo jumbo, however, it feels really bad to feel taken advantage of.
I came across what I think are some excellent one page forms that might be helpful: http://www.drawnanddrafted.com/bootcamps/. They also go into a bit about what rights you are giving up at said prices and that's quite helpful.
Remember, you are the creative in this and being able to unleash your creativity on the map will make it WAY better than if you just draw whatever they ask for. (This is in reference to the comment above about being able to have some background story before designing the map. Knowing the story or having that back and forth conversation is very helpful.) You will likely come up with something that will blow their socks off and that is exactly what they should be paying you for. This is also where your personal interpretation comes in and that's practically a signature. If you can't make enough money to keep the lights on and pay the mortgage you probably won't be able to continue making art and that doesn't help anyone.
I'm one of those folks who hates talking about money so I find it hard negotiating, especially when I feel like an island. I appreciate the open honesty of those here who are willing to share how they have done it. The only thing that has helped me to set a price is basically looking at how long it would take to make the map and how much it costs me to not spend those hours in my consulting business. If it's not worth my time, it's just not worth my time.
Great thread and might need to be moved to a more permanent area.
If you mean last clause "work made for hire" notice this definition:
"If a work is made for hire, an employer is considered the author even if an employee actually created the work. The employer can be a firm, an organization, or an individual."
So unless you are an employee I believe the 35 is you. I'm no expert but I think we do have at least one lawyer around here. Being a freelance commission means you are not an employee as in "work made for hire":
"A work made for hire (sometimes abbreviated as work for hire or WFH) is a work created by an employee as part of his or her job, or a work created on behalf of a client where all parties agree in writing to the WFH designation."
Last edited by Jaxilon; 05-11-2015 at 02:55 AM.
“When it’s over and you look in the mirror, did you do the best that you were capable of? If so, the score does not matter. But if you find that you did your best you were capable of, you will find it to your liking.” -John Wooden
* Rivengard * My Finished Maps * My Challenge Maps * My deviantArt
If you are planning on trying to make being an artists your living, in whole or in part, you need to deal with legal mumbo jumbo. Being an artist, professionally isn't just making art. I've seen plenty of amazingly skilled and creative people fail, simply because they didn't want to deal with the business side of the industry.
Drawn and Drafted is great, and I'm friends with both the people behind it, Lauren and Marc. I would stay away or at least approach with caution, the group ArtPACT. They are well meaning, but their methods are biased and really more intent on bullying companies with blackmail into paying better. It was founded by a guy that is so bitter about his illustration career. That bitterness is reflected in the group.
Once you understand all the legal stuff, contracts, self promotion and all that, you can spend more time making the art.
You should have some passion, I think, for the business side of things to really succeed. Or be so amazing, you have an agent or a rep.
Last edited by TimPaul; 05-11-2015 at 10:10 AM.
Honestly, I have though about paying people to make me maps, but never of making maps for other people. I will have to up my skill and get into the game a bit I guess, lol. I never realized how big the map making business was. Pretty overwhelming at first, I can tell you that much!
I'd say one general problem is that many potential clients have no idea of the amount of work and time a map will require. I've gotten quite a number of requests lately, but what 90% of them have in common is a complete disregard for the position of the artists.
Just the other day I had a request for a printable "detailed map, colour, fairly large, showing a major city and several large towns and important castles, a sprinkling of smaller towns and places of interest." As I'm doing discount commission rates at the moment to get some quick cash to support my girlfriend I chose to offer the map at a price about half as much as I'd usually charge. And that was still way above what the client was willing to pay. Only a few days prior a client from Poland inquired about a large-scale colored map under commercial commission conditions. Same thing there. And I certainly don't charge nowhere near the amount of what some of the more proliferate and professional members here would.
You can't force it, I'm afraid. There'll always be far too many people out there who believe that they can get that super-detailed A2 size colored map for under €100. The only thing we can do is try to no enable them. :/ And even if I could use the money I won't agree to do a commission where the rate divided through the required hours falls below what I do in my crappy dayjob.
Since this thread is still open, I'm going to add something here. Yes, this is in response to a recent unpleasant response I was singled out on. However, what I'm going to say is just advice in general, and not aimed specifically at the ranter, even if what I say applies.
Anyone on this forum can find some benefit in my views. Or not. Your choice.
I only know one person who makes their entire living off of maps. And I know quite a few illustrative map makers, some of them personally, and some of those are friends, not just social connections. Doing maps only covers part of my income. I also do children illustration and character design. Which makes up more of my income than map making.
If anyone feels their work isn't getting enough comments or attention, there's an actual reason. The work just isn't registering with people enough for them to want to make a comment. Which means, that person, any of you that feel this, need to step back, look at your work, and try and see it objectively. And when putting your work out there for criticism, guess what. You don't get to argue with what people say. Sure you CAN, but you are just being an ass at that point.
You have to be willing to hear what someone doesn't like about you work, to get better. Not everything people say. But you have to give it consideration at least. Learning to decipher what people are saying is just as much a valuable skill as learning to make maps. Is the person giving useful feedback, or expressing their opinion.
The hardest thing, making work that fits the market you are going for, versus being true to yourself. There's two major markets for illustrative maps. Fantasy and gaming. Both have a distinct feel and look for them. It might be that your maps don't quite fit either. It's a hard balance to find.
Getting work doing anything creative, is a slow, slow process that requires a lot of work to build on. I'm currently in good standing with several ADs that can hire people to do maps. It was slow at first, and sometimes I would email them and ask for work. Each time, I did a better job.
I'm friends with one of the top art directors award winning in sci fi/fantasy. But they don't deal with the interiors, so as much as they would love to hire me for maps, it's out of their hands. There's an interior department and that AD has map illustrators they like. So it's not always who you know.
But here's my ace in the whole. I am an amazing person to work with. Yes, that sounds like patting myself on the back. But art directors love working with me because i'm very professional, I don't mind revisions and changes, i listen to what they are saying, I am proactive, and most importantly, they can put me in touch with the authors, and I will do all I can to get information from the authors, to make the map of their world better.
Authors love working with me. With one publisher, I'm known as the Art Directors Map Guy. I've worked hard to get to that level. Authors tell other authors at the same publisher to ask for a map, and to ask for me, and Editors at the publisher ask if I'm available. That's not on accident, that's because of professionalism, and that I do good work, and each map I work to make better than the last.
It's completely self destructive to attack, in any forum, another artists. No matter what you think of their work. In regards to the map that was linked too. That was created for a horror roll playing game, and that's all the information that was required on the map, and it was a hand out for the players, and needed to look like it had been submerged and dried. I wanted hand printing on it, but the AD wanted type.
it's not one of my best maps. Partly because it was one of my first maps, and partly because I needed to meet the AD's requirements. Sometimes you just are up against that. That map is about 2.5 years old. It's not a very good map, but we all start somewhere. I'm currently sitting on a map that just blows that map away. I can't show it till the book comes out. I'm working on two other maps that will also be much better. Each time, you get better than the last.
Again, we all start somewhere, and we all progress as best as we can. I have many books on maps, and the NY library has a whole room of maps. I collect books with great examples of maps, and I have access to an amazing resource for maps. I'm always researching to make better maps. Because I love maps, and want to make better maps.
Someone recently contacted an AD I work with, complaining they aren't spreading the work around enough. That person just shot themselves in the foot. I have no idea who it was, and I don't want to know. However. That is NOT how you go about getting work, by complaining. AD's come back and use you because of the quality of work, and the relationship you have with them. And that takes a while to build. I think I've made that point several times.
Here's the thing. I've done a total of 5 maps for that company, since November of 2014. That's probably a lot, but considering they publish 400+ books a year, that's not really hogging all the work. There's more books I didn't do a map for, than I did maps for. Someone else clearly got those jobs.
I'm not at the point yet where I'm so saturated with work, that I have to turn work away. But when I can't take work, or I'm not right for the job. I always recommend someone. I'm certainly never going to recommend someone that attacks me out of their own bitterness, no matter how good their work is.
I also work at promoting my maps. Among the many illustrators I know and am connected too (literally hundreds, of all levels) I'm the map guy. If ever someone is looking for a map, they recommend me. Again, this isn't by accident, it's by working and networking.
If all a person wants to do, is make illustrative maps for a living, you've got a LOT of work in store for you. And again, it's a slow build and it takes time. Like I said, I only know one person that is able to support themselves solely making maps.
Last edited by TimPaul; 06-17-2015 at 10:56 AM.
Yeah, I've run into that situation more than once, even to maps posted elsewhere with critique requests. Then I toss in that here at the Cartographers' Guild, I'm a member of the River Police, a title given for helping newbie posted maps that include basic geologic/geographic mistakes, and especially since rivers seem to be the most frequently screwed up geologic feature in maps, hence the name "river police".
Now I will state, that some of my own artistic styles incorporate features that some other cartographers just don't care for, like mixing hand-drawn work with vector beveling to imply changes in elevation - or even using beveling at all in a wholely digital map, when they think I should be painting in the shadows instead. I can appreciate any artist's point of view regarding issues like that, however, frankly, I don't really care. I am not asking for critiques, rather just posting maps for people to use in their games. I know that while I get inspired by the works of other master cartographers, I have never had any intentions of emulating those styles. My style is my own, and if no one elses emulates that style - that is perfectly fine with me. I don't want my maps to appear like other cartographer's works. Basically, I see an image of some landscape in my mind, and I work as fast as possible to get that idea on paper/monitor, anything that can help me get there faster, so I don't lose any details in my mind, the better. I find using techniques like beveling get me there fast - and that's my only concern.
I am a prolific cartographer, who gets commissions from many RPG publishers and the video game strategy guide industry (and I do this full time), so I know there's an eager market for my work, and that's all that really matters. While I like to provide inspiration for other cartographers too, the fact that it doesn't meet their standards - I am not trying to do that.
Gamer Printshop Publishing, Starfinder RPG modules and supplements, Map Products, Map Symbol Sets and Map Making Tutorial Guide
DrivethruRPG store
Artstation Gallery - Maps and 3D illustrations
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
