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Actually, I haven't pointed that out, nor is that really my opinion.Originally Posted by chick
The things that are being discussed in this thread really are very, very important to all of us who are trying to do serious and believable cartographic work, but the things being brought up here are not the sum and essence of all things for most users of this forum, although they are, as said, very, very important. However, they are not so important that they tip the scales in such a manner as to destroy our work. That can happen when advice is given, as it has been in a forum thread here, that if one abandons reality on one point, one might as well do what one wants and abandon it entirely.
Some people here map the real world, meaning Earth, the world in which we live. A few people map fictional alternate worlds in which the other world obeys the same rules as those applied to Earth. More map science fiction (note the word fiction) worlds (including versions of Earth as it might exist in the future) that often have been changed through future science. One may hypothesize and argue about what future science will produce and when it will do it, but history pretty well has shown that such hypotheses often are quite different from the end result. In creating such a virtual, future, in some degree by science shaped world, the cartographer needs to create an alternate planet in which those things that we believe to be realities in the 21st century no longer are quite so important a guideline. Instead, science fiction world creators and cartographers need to strive above all for believability.
Most cartographers in this guild submit maps of fantasy realms for fantasy role-playing games or fantasy novels. Most of these worlds are filled with creatures and historical events that are not believed to have existed ever upon our own Earth and most of these worlds have been shaped to one extent or another by magic. All of this by popular contemporary definition is unreal, even if some of us might believe that elves, dwarves, trolls and magic really do exist but are only well hidden.
Telling the creator, author or cartographer of a fantasy world with enchanted creatures and magic that all should follow the alleged rules of reality not only is a contradiction but also is tantamount to saying that he or she should forget fantasy to begin with. Telling the same people that if they make things that defy the rules of reality they might as well forget reality is just plain bad advice. Just as is the case with science fiction creators and cartographers, the fantasy author and mapper need to achieve something other than reality, they need to achieve believability.
Taken literally, that sentence says that all fantasy maps have the potential of being ruined for you because all fantasy maps, by their nature, have the potential of being, in part, unreal. However, I think and hope that you mean something other than that.
I hope that none of us here is foolish enough to debate about what you want. However, if It's hard enough for you to suspend reality to accommodate ... elves and dwarves I might go so far as to suggest that what you want is a bit removed from what most fantasy mappers here want and do in creating their settings.
That, on the other hand, is a point upon which almost all of us probably agree.
In a sense, I think that's correct. I think that was the purpose of this thread when you started it. But I also think the contents of the postings that have been made since that start really have expanded the purpose of the thread for guild members. I think its current purpose might now be to help guild members use reality as a foundation for their fantasy creations, rather than merely to help those who want to follow reality. After all, in a guild dominated by fantasy (i.e. non-real in some respects) helping only those who want to follow reality might not address many guild members' needs or desires.
Let's remember that the ideas posted in this thread go beyond cartography. A map is not the definition of a setting but rather the visual realization of a fantasy world that has been imagined by its creator. Thus, in any sensible discussion of reality and non-reality and virtual reality in a fantasy RPG or novel setting, one must go beyond cartographic issues to the definitions of the setting in general, some elements of which can be described only in texts and not in maps.
The idea behind this thread began with another topic that dealt with the concept of a floating volcano. The initiator of that thread received replies that ranged from ridicule to sound supportive suggestions. The floating volcano is a good illustrating topic, because it's not that far removed from floating cities.
In the Forgotten Realms® campaign setting, originally published by the old TSR® Inc. and now published by Wizards of the Coast® Inc., the old, highly magical nation of Netheril had floating cities that hovered above the world's surface, cities that high-powered wizards tore from the base upon terra firma and sent upward with extremely powerful spells.
It may be that one likes or dislikes the Forgotten Realms or the Netheril part of the Realms, but the real world fact of the matter is that the Realms are the best-selling, most popular fantasy RPG campaign setting ever created, one of the most-mapped fantasy RPG settings and a setting with some of the most highly-praised maps in fantasy RPG history. Regardless of one's own likes and dislikes, there is no fantasy RPG setting and no set of fantasy RPG maps that defines the mainstream of fantasy RPG creation and fantasy RPG cartography to the extent that the Forgotten Realms campaign setting does.
The truth is that I don't like today's Forgotten Realms setting much at all, and I positively disliked Netheril, with its floating cities. I thought it all was hokey. However, my dissenting thoughts are mostly irrelevant when I give advice, because they are far from the mainstream. Rather than pushing our own philosophies on others we might be better advised to help them to achieve their own goals.
That applies too to guild members who are seeking cartographic advice for fantasy novels. I would argue that nothing has defined and shaped modern mainstream fantasy literature as much as the novels The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings by the late Prof. J.R.R. Tolkien.
If Tolkien were posting here, he would have the reality-or-nothing school all over his back. The right-angled mountains of Mordor are nothing compared to some of his other violations! Think of it: A perfectly healthy forest like Myrkwood becomes ill because of the presence of a black necromancer. And then once fertile lands go on over a seemingly endless distance between the Misty Mountains and the Mountains of Mordor, first turned into a desolation, then swamps where undead lurk underwater waiting to grab victims and finally plains of ash before one finally reaches those criminal right-angle mountains.
Why do these things work for most people in the realms of fantasy RPGs and fantasy novels? I would submit that the answer is that the creators and cartographers do exactly what is and should be the objective of this thread and advice given in this guild. All successful fantasy RPG settings and fantasy novels of which I'm aware begin with a foundation. It is the real world in which we live, along with all of its rules of reality, true and false. But then, because these settings are fantasy, the creators add elements that go beyond real world reality into a virtual reality of their own that is unreal in our earthly world. The driving force for that non-real virtual reality usually is magic.
This is where those who post here with fantasy RPG maps and fantasy novels can use help. Magic changes things and makes them unreal, but for the RPG setting or novel to be successful, these changes that veer from reality must be believable or credible. That usually is done well when the unreal is integrated into a basically real environment.
Once we accept the unreal element, such as the floating volcano, as being a virtual reality within the fantasy environment, we need to do all that is necessary to make it and its presence believable and credible. That responsibility rests, of course, with the creator. He or she first must give us a good explanation of why and how this magical aberration of reality was realized. After that, however, we need to know the limits of the magic and then define how our foundation - the realities of our own Earth - are affected by and will react to the magical aberration.
Successful unrealities in fantasy works seldom have empirical effects. The magical force that has created a floating volcano usually does only that much. The spellcaster usually does not also employ additional magic to place sunshine beneath the floating volcano where there otherwise would be shade, nor does he or she usually send in magical rain to water the soil under the floating volcano's umbrella below. If the volcano is active, there probably also is lava runoff hitting the land below.
These things usually are beyond the limits of the magic at hand. Our foundation then needs to deal with these effects of the magic. That foundation, being reality, must determine in a real world manner how the land below reacts to the volcano's shadow, its rain umbrella and the lava overflow. Those are the ingredients that are necessary to make the incredible both credible and believable.
Fortunately, after the initial ridiculing in the floating volcano thread, this is exactly what guild members did, and they did it well. If we want to help each other build better settings and make better maps, we need to do it on this level. We need to take the creator's work and apply reality to it to make it believable and credible. That helps. Telling intelligent guild members that there are no such things as floating volcanoes helps no one.
