4e Core Rulebooks

[loogie]

Agreed. There was a book about building castles and fortresses that had loads of great information, down to the niggly details of how many square feet per diner should be available in the great hall. I'd provide the actual title, but it's packed away in my storage unit at the moment.

I enjoy the occasional D&D session, but people come into the game with so many preconceived notions that I generally avoid it, too.

its Castles and Ruins

i in fact have it as well... got it as a pdf... its just a scan of the old book but, you can find it at ICE's store. Its the amount of detail they put into their sourcebooks that makes me love them...

And as far as healing surges and such... i'm much more hardcore then dnd i guess... i KNOW not a lot of people are like i am when it comes to playing, so surges is a good idea... but for me, the much more terrifying possibility of you OR your opponent getting a simple lucky hit that crushes your pelvis, severs an artery, or just plain lops off a limb is where i like to be... HARP's attacks have several effects like - to actions, stunned, bleeding per round, broken bones, severed limbs etc... while i do edit my monsters attack results so that i don't kill or maim my players all the time, i often let broken bones, and such slip by... and without instant cure-all magical fixes, it makes people go into combat with a little hesitation, and a lot of planning... (i like tactics)... basically, i made any magical healing an out of combat option... usually by changing its cast time...

4th ed sounds interesting, and i'm sure i'll end up trying it some time... tho i've heard plenty of people talking about it... and they've been busy crunching numbers so that when their DM switches, they'll have the best possible character they can have... i'm sure it won't take long to find some loopholes to create the munchkin characters. its just how some people play... and in my experience, those players are almost always playing dnd... guess being the biggest and most popular rp system is a benefit and curse.

[torstan]

I had a go at MERP and was put off ICE products by the sheer mind-bending complexity of the system - but then we were only 14 at the time and D&D just fit better. Sounds like it might be worth revisiting some of their stuff from what you say.

I like the new wizards. We played a short test combat when we first picked up the books and one of my old players was whinging about how wizards looked vastly under-powered. At the end of the combat he said that was the first time he'd played a wizard that actually felt like a wizard in any game. That's the recommendation I have heard for trying the game anywhere.

As for the DMing side, it's definitely faster to build up adventures and monsters are a lot easier to run. I'm not enamoured by the skill-challenges though. They're a bit too simplistic at the moment - maybe they'll become a little more complex when I get my head designing them better.

[Tancread]

I have been running a kids game and enjoy the new rules. The last straight D&D rules I used were the first three hard backs back in the early eighties. I have never used any of the plethora of stuff since then. I am really enjoying the game overall, but I am amazed at the stupidity of some things.

• The game is clearly aimed to use miniatures and yet they won't sell you the miniatures. The 'collectible' miniatures are scam, plain and simple. I just don't like buying figures that way and even if I did there are tons of figures you need they don't even make. Madness. How hard would it have been for them to make up a box of generic adventure types, with racial variations? How about a box of kobolds or goblins? Luckily I have access to a ton of other miniatures, but I have to admit this one just simply baffles me.
  
• Powers cards really are needed. Having your powers on a card would be sooo helpful, especially for younger players and new players. They have set up a system where it would be easy to make these and they are.... next spring sometime and $10 per class! I will just make my own but the laziness and greed here are stunning. It would have been simple to have these ready for release, this isn't rocket science it is cut and paste. $10 per class! I hope these cards shine my shoes and wash my car for that kind of money.
  
• Their character sheet product contains four character sheets for $10. Holy crud that is some expensive character sheets. Sadly I didn't know this when I bought and discovered much to my chagrin once I owned it that these sheets don't wash my car or polish my shoes, which they really should do for that kind of money. Best of all I bought it Amazon so that $10 is a discounted price!
  
• Skill challenges are hard for the kids to wrap their heads around. I don't tell the kids they are in one, I just have them roll and prod them along towards a solution.

The fighting is good fun and moves around more than any other RPG I have played to date. The fights feel more like the fights from The Three Musketeers with the kids skidding around and using any trick they can think of, I am very happy with that.

I was playing D&D back when 'The Thief' was a wild new character class and am having no trouble with a cookie cutter feel to my game. I suspect over the next five years or so Wizards will introduce tons of new character classes and tons of new rules so fans of Hobbit Ninja/Warlock/Sworddancer/demi-balrogs will have what they need soon enough but for now the game fits me and my groups well enough even with the complaints above. Certainly the most D&D fun I have had in a long time.

[GlennZilla]

The game is clearly aimed to use miniatures and yet they won't sell you the miniatures. The 'collectible' miniatures are scam, plain and simple. I just don't like buying figures that way and even if I did there are tons of figures you need they don't even make. Madness. How hard would it have been for them to make up a box of generic adventure types, with racial variations? How about a box of kobolds or goblins? Luckily I have access to a ton of other miniatures, but I have to admit this one just simply baffles me.

Try www.reapermini.com They have TONS of character figures and just about everything else you can imagine. For the request for a box of goblins/orcs/kobolds/gnolls try the warhammer Fantasy Unit Boxes. Usually they are multipart plastic models that allow each to have a unique and dynamic pose. I just picked up this for about $25. That's just over $1 a figure; about what you'd give WoTC for the rubbery prepainted ones.

The downside being you'd have to paint them yourself. I'm all about that and as a former Warhammer junkie and store owner I can assure you that if you haven't painted a mini it's not as hard as it appears.

Powers cards really are needed. Having your powers on a card would be sooo helpful, especially for younger players and new players. They have set up a system where it would be easy to make these and they are.... next spring sometime and $10 per class! I will just make my own but the laziness and greed here are stunning. It would have been simple to have these ready for release, this isn't rocket science it is cut and paste. $10 per class! I hope these cards shine my shoes and wash my car for that kind of money.

Already exists for free. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=568 Fan creation, but it's being maintained pretty well so far.

Their character sheet product contains four character sheets for $10. Holy crud that is some expensive character sheets. Sadly I didn't know this when I bought and discovered much to my chagrin once I owned it that these sheets don't wash my car or polish my shoes, which they really should do for that kind of money. Best of all I bought it Amazon so that $10 is a discounted price!

Try these: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=231186

[Tancread]

Thanks for the links, I will use those I think. As for figures I have a ton of old ones, Games Workshop and Grenadier with some old Ral Parthas as well. I am just amazed that they aren't doing it themselves. I literally can't imagine what they are thinking. Thanks again for the links!

[GlennZilla]

Thanks for the links, I will use those I think. As for figures I have a ton of old ones, Games Workshop and Grenadier with some old Ral Parthas as well. I am just amazed that they aren't doing it themselves. I literally can't imagine what they are thinking. Thanks again for the links!

My guess, and that's all it is, is that they didn't have the resources to take it that far. Kind of like the DnDinsider stuff, it's great on paper but the execution was a bit "limited".

But the fans and 3rd party guys fill in nicely.

[Steel General]

Don't the have a program that allows you to run your adventures? Or is that still a WIP...could of swore I saw a demo of it somewhere.

[torstan]

They demoed it last Gen Con but it has yet to materialise. They meant to get it out for launch, but missed that and now say it should be out by the end of the year. I guess the next we'll hear is Gen Con this year.

On the other hand, lots of people appeared on the maptool forums for the first time in the days following the missed launch. Whatever wizards produce is going to have to be good enough to draw them back from maptool - which will be pretty tricky.

[Midgardsormr]

I had a go at MERP and was put off ICE products by the sheer mind-bending complexity of the system - but then we were only 14 at the time and D&D just fit better. Sounds like it might be worth revisiting some of their stuff from what you say.

Heh. If you thought MERP was complex, you should see Rolemaster. MERP and HARP are essentially "Rolemaster Lite." RM includes an attack table for each and every weapon you can use. None of this weenie one-handed slashing table; the fighter with the bastard sword uses the Bastard Sword Table, and the ranger with the longsword uses the Longsword Table. It's insane.

On the other hand, the level of detail and attention to source material that went into their books is almost unparalleled. I still have tons of MERP books that I consider almost as good as the canon written by Tolkien himself.

As far as 4e goes, I do agree with Tancread; it was rather silly of them not to at least manufacture minis to support the core races and the first sourcebook. Fortunately, my current group has plenty of minis from dozens of games, so we get by just fine. And when I move to Denver, I'll be using Maptool in projector mode, so the need for minis will vanish entirely.

[Steel General]

Heh. If you thought MERP was complex, you should see Rolemaster. MERP and HARP are essentially "Rolemaster Lite." RM includes an attack table for each and every weapon you can use. None of this weenie one-handed slashing table; the fighter with the bastard sword uses the Bastard Sword Table, and the ranger with the longsword uses the Longsword Table. It's insane.

On the other hand, the level of detail and attention to source material that went into their books is almost unparalleled. I still have tons of MERP books that I consider almost as good as the canon written by Tolkien himself.

We played Rolemaster (or should I say ROLLmaster ) quite abit when I still lived in Western NY, and you're right its overly complex in some ways, but the supporting products were fantastic.