Ramifications of a magical, "flat" worldspace.

[TheMagnificentEh]

Hello, everyone!

My first attempt to swagger into the giant primary forum, and I come baring a question I hope hasn't been asked too much. For the sake of discussion, here's a scenario.

There's a fantasy world, as there so often is of course. This world, however, is not a planet. In fact, it is less of a world and more of a realm of existence. It is grounded firmly, however, by the laws of physics. Because if it wasn't, how could we even do anything in it, really? The space not arbitrarily finite or infinite, rather it is open to expansion or even extinction based upon the whims of those whom sadly control the fate of this world. Godheads, as it were.

Let's add that it happens to be a bit Tolkien-esque in the fact that the oceans, or ocean, could lead to an entirely different realm of existence. So in essence we have a world that is flat. Not paper flat, of course. There has to be topography. Mountains, hills, forests, rivers, lakes. How would you approach such a creature? Surely it would be easy to just make a regular, old-timey looking parchment map and ignore the overarching lore, but what massive factors missing from a non-rounded, non-planetoid surface could influence the way topography works realistically? Things that might not be immediately obvious to laymen but that should be considered in terms of having any sense of grounded realism to the terrain.

[waldronate]

The biggest single problem with a flat world is that nothing that we take for granted in our spherical world works. There is no day/night cycle. There is no heat transfer because there isn't differential heating by latitude. Similarly, ocean currents don't work. If you insert a day/night cycle through some continuously-maintained mechanism, what do you do about moons/planets/stars in the sky?

Let's consider a flat world that's ten thousand miles across. What happens at the edges of this world? If we want to go classic discworld style (waterfalls at the edge, some elephants, a turtle, the whole bit), we can put a big and hot ball that rotates around the world to give something that looks like a sun. I have no idea how an atmosphere would be retained in such a case, though, unless maybe gravity would be linear "down" rather than towards the nearest mass. A many-kilometer-high wall at the edge of the world would keep in the ocean and the air, but weather doesn't work anything at all like on Earth under those circumstances. If you want Earthlike behavior, then you'll need some consciousness that is responsible for ensuring that each aspect (air currents, heat distribution, ocean currents, and so on) gives a reasonable simulation on your flat space.

If you're going with a flat world that has diffuse edge conditions (warping off to different "realms"), then you can fudge those edge conditions to give you something that's vaguely Earthlike, but there's still the problem with astronomical things.

The traditional approach to this situation is to treat everything as Earthlike, add magic and gods suitable to your own tastes, and ignore any logical inconsistencies that arise.

[jshoer]

One way to get a physically realizable 'flat' planet is to look into the 'eyeball Earth' exoplanet scenario.

Astronomers have discovered planets around other stars orbiting in the range that allows liquid water on their surface, but they are also tidally locked to their star. One side of the planet always faces the star, and the sun doesn't move in the sky. The upshot of all this is that the planet would be ice or rock over most of its surface, but in a disk-shaped area directly under the sun there would be liquid water with islands, continents, and potentially life. Everywhere outside the disk is ice - an alien world to the people who live in the habitable disk.

If you're curious to see one concept, here's mine: https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...chmentid=71250

[Pananacakes]

That's an interesting scenario, jshoer. I'm going to make note if it for the future.

[TheMagnificentEh]

The biggest single problem with a flat world is that nothing that we take for granted in our spherical world works. There is no day/night cycle. There is no heat transfer because there isn't differential heating by latitude. Similarly, ocean currents don't work. If you insert a day/night cycle through some continuously-maintained mechanism, what do you do about moons/planets/stars in the sky?

Let's consider a flat world that's ten thousand miles across. What happens at the edges of this world? If we want to go classic discworld style (waterfalls at the edge, some elephants, a turtle, the whole bit), we can put a big and hot ball that rotates around the world to give something that looks like a sun. I have no idea how an atmosphere would be retained in such a case, though, unless maybe gravity would be linear "down" rather than towards the nearest mass. A many-kilometer-high wall at the edge of the world would keep in the ocean and the air, but weather doesn't work anything at all like on Earth under those circumstances. If you want Earthlike behavior, then you'll need some consciousness that is responsible for ensuring that each aspect (air currents, heat distribution, ocean currents, and so on) gives a reasonable simulation on your flat space.

If you're going with a flat world that has diffuse edge conditions (warping off to different "realms"), then you can fudge those edge conditions to give you something that's vaguely Earthlike, but there's still the problem with astronomical things.

The traditional approach to this situation is to treat everything as Earthlike, add magic and gods suitable to your own tastes, and ignore any logical inconsistencies that arise.

Right. I'll admit, I was thinking of this in a fantasy setting. I tend to be very organized with my lore, so I think with proper dedication I could plug most inconsistencies. The thing would be not contradicting it later down the line if I were to work on it quite a bit. How to handle the sky above is an interesting question, as really there would be no such thing as "space". It isn't a flat, floating piece of land sitting in the middle of a vast universe. It is a conscious realm of existence. Something that exists, is maintained, and operated for a purpose. For all intent there is no universe, only conscious realms of existence and the manifests there-in.

So I guess the question becomes how for a lot of things, with an all encompassing why attached for good measure.

[Moros]

I'm not entirely sure this would work, seeing as how I am not overly vested in physics or anything. But, assuming that there is some element of magic (in a broad sense, that is) around, as there are gods, which prevents some of the real world ramifications of a flat plane that large, such as the effect of gravity always leading to the center of mass, which gives the impression of walking up a hill the farther you go from the center, if you are keeping most of the real world physics, so that it still more or less seems like the real world for specific individuals, there are quite a few ways to go. Of course, you could say that gravity is some how fundamentally different and instead of working towards wherever mass is gathered, instead goes towards what is perceived as down. Or, that gravity actually in fact works the same, and there there is some very large high mass object below the flat plane, and something in place to keep the plane at the right distance as to not fall into it or get crushed. Of course, depending on how close or far you are this might affect the level of gravity. Another option is what some flat earthers have suggested before as a theory for how the Earth could be flat and still have "gravity". That being that the entire earth is actually going at a constant speed downwards, and through electromagnetism (or something) brings its atmosphere and assorted objects located on it with it in it's journey. Another possibility, although not one I hear often, or ever really, is to have the plane have large walls (the ones that prevent water escaping) and having the entire plane spin very, very, very fast. this could theoretically keep an atmosphere in, and if you do it right have more or less Earth like Gs. On some parts of it, anyways. The problem with this being that any object that is thrown, or even falls, would probably seem to have an extremely odd trajectory (opposite of the spin), and that the level of Gs experienced would not be uniform across the entire plane, making it seem like there are different levels of gravity across different parts of the plane. This would also lead to the center (or wherever) being a relatively low G environment, and probably somewhat hostile to life. Even with all of these, if you're trying to make a somewhat plausible scientific possibility of a flat plane that is inhabited, there are major problems, like the fact that convection wouldn't occur underneath, making there no drive for tectonic plates to move, meaning no mountains. And also a surface geography that has never, and likely will never, majorly change due to natural causes. Since there is no gravity, there is no moon, meaning no tides. The lack of tectonic activity would lead to a lack of earthquakes. And a whole lot of other stuff. My suggestion to you: if you're trying to make this somewhat realistic, DON'T. Just make the world a flat plane with normal features and give absolutely no further explanation other than "God's and magic. Or something". You might be looking for things that might slightly change, but if you want to implement a single thing that's different because of it, you'd probably have to go the entire way and make the entire realm of physics completely different or have your plane be an inhospitable hell, no matter what way it is explained. Other than "gods".

[GrimFinger]

It is grounded firmly, however, by the laws of physics.

The space not arbitrarily finite or infinite, rather it is open to expansion or even extinction based upon the whims of those whom sadly control the fate of this world. Godheads, as it were.

Make your mind up. Which is it? Grounded firmly in physics? Or based upon the whims of the Godheads? You're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

Your map doesn't care about any of that. Rather, it is a quintessential exercise in visual stimulation. It sets the visual mood. The physics and the magics of your worldly creation are matters distinct from the map of the same. Don't confuse them. What makes sense of it all is something called explanatory text.

Your map dares the eye to imagine. It invites the suspension of belief. It encourages realistic heresy.

If at the ends of your flat world the water flows over the edge, it can simply flow back on the underside, and this flow creates currents. The currents will contribute to the climates of your world. Air flows as easily as water does, just in a different manner. Your flat world can have water that circulates, and it can have air that circulates/moves (wind). What makes it all work is literary license, not physics nor magic.

The edge/end of the world is a barrier. Automatically, that makes it an attraction of interest o the human imagination. Perhaps this flat world is so big, that non one has ever even seen the end of it.

Not all Godheads have to be active. They can be passive. Take water, for example. The water of your flat world could be one of the Godheads. You can drown in too much mana, and especially if the mana (essence of the Godhead) takes the form of liquid. Why does the water flow? Why is there a tide? Because the Godhead that is water is alive.

How is life possible on such a world? Magic. How does the solar wind not strip away the atmosphere? Magic. One can be both selective and restrained in their embrace of magic in worlds of fantasy. How does one comprehend the mind of God? How does one comprehend the mind of magic?

Don't put the cart before the horse. Draw your world (your map of your world), and then dare to try and explain it.