How to choose a tool for mapping?

[nichendrix]

If you don't mind, I'm going to jump in again, for a moment. As I stated before, I use CC3+ exclusively, though I don't have every product that profantasy has to offer. I own cc3+/cd3/dd3, with Fractal Terrains, and Perspectives. I also have Symbol Sets 1, 2, and 3. Plus, I have just about every third party add on that the Vyntiri Project provides. Oh, I also have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping, as well.

I've been using cc3+ for almost three years now, and I will freely admit, that I am still learning how to use the program. Now, don't get me wrong, I have made some pretty decent maps in cc3+, from villages, to dungeons, to regional maps. I'm currently working on a world map that was started in factal terrains, and I have various projects going all at once.

I'm a writer, but I'm also a gamer. I play D&D, Mech Warrior, Scion, some of the other White Wolf games, and some games that are completely thought up by our GM's. I also run Scion, D&D, and Mech Warrior games. I purchased cc3+ to create maps for those games.

CC3+ does have a lot of advantages, as Mark posted earlier. And I've known Mark for all of the three years I've been using cc3+, and I know he's very knowledgeable about these programs. I'm not refuting anything Mark has already told you, just adding something else for consideration.


Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives: isometric, and top-down views. But this can be a disadvantage as well. CC3+ overland maps are drawn in isometric. Now there is no problem there, as far as I am concerned. Dungeons and cities/villages, are drawn in a top-down view (unless you have perspectives... which I have, but so far haven't been able to work with). Now, using some of the overland symbols, if you are drawing a fantasy map (medieval or dark ages style), you can actually make an isometric town, village or even city. Tonnichiwa, here at the guild, has some great examples of having done just that.

One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer which I don't have yet (that is my next purchase). Now for someone like me, that runs sci-fi games, like Mech Warrior, or my husband, who runs Star Trek games... that's problematic when we want to make world or regional maps of a sci-fi nature. There are some modern symbols for city map making, and there are some symbols that will work with either, but even for cd3, there aren't as many things to work in a modern setting as there is for fantasy. CC3+ has rastor symbols, but not vector ones. I don't use rastor symbols much, I prefer vector.


Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+. Which means you could make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings. But again, that takes time. I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.

It seems that for sci-fi stuff, CC3+ is as limited as MapForge and FM8 in terms of ready to use content.

If it CC3+CD could generate sci-fi or futuristic cities it would be the most interesting thing to me, but you said they are also geared towards fantasy settings.

One thing I've noticed is that it takes around $150 to have all the add-ons to really make sci-fi stuff with CC3+. MapForge is way cheaper, but with all the add-ons it seems it falls on the same price range as CC3+. On the other hand, FM8+AS costs only $50 bucks, which is odd given it is 1/3rd of its competitors costs, or am I missing something?

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[ladiestorm]

I'm afraid I don't know as much about mapforge or FM8 or 9. The one thing I can tell you about cc3+ is that you don't have to get each specific product to be able to produce good maps. I started with just the basic combo pack: cc3+/cd3/dd3. That, combined with the CSUAC2, the Dundjinni Archives, and Bogie's Mapping objects helps me produce 95% of the maps I make. And if you look at my gallery, you will see a couple of 'modern' maps there, such as my town of DunHaven, and my underground Sybco Lab. So the possibility is there, to produce modern style maps, as long as you aren't trying to build a modern world. If you want to build a modern or futuristic world, you will probably need Cosmographer, and probably SS3 (symbol set 3). Perspectives might be able to help you create your own symbols for modern, or futuristic worlds, cities, dungeons, what ever you might need.

Also, Profantasy does offer 'bundle packs' for those that don't want to spend that kind of money all at once. Also, profantasy is always coming out with new content for their programs, in the form of the annuals. For those, you buy a yearly subscription, and something new comes out each month. So just because they don't have anything now, doesn't mean they won't in the future.

[waldronate]

sci-fi or futuristic cities

I see a lot of discussion about this and I'm curious what this sort of thing would look like. Does anyone have some good examples of maps using this sort of style? I don't care whether it was done with some pre-packaged software or drawn freehand.

[nichendrix]

I see a lot of discussion about this and I'm curious what this sort of thing would look like. Does anyone have some good examples of maps using this sort of style? I don't care whether it was done with some pre-packaged software or drawn freehand.

It's strange that few share their work on this subject. The few I've seen are for Star Wars, usualy backwater towns like Mos Eisley, Mos Espa, etc.

For example, this is the map of Mos Shuuta that comes with FFG's SW EotE Beginner's Game:
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHIkIYFV0VTi3e3tInBWQ2sxiNzXa4s 7hF6IbbSM95m6M49ae2RQ
[/IMG]

This is a Map made by Ruakar depicting a section of Lothal capital city from Star Wars Rebels. :


A more complete map of the Lothal's capital city.


Another city made by Ruakar, this time from some backwater place like Tatooine:


Another one by Ruakar, but this time a more developed multiple level city:


I know a few other Star Wars forum users that make city maps, but they are only a small portion of them actually share their maps with the community and a good deal of them only do maps on paid requests, so they usualy don't share too much, just enough to wet potential customer's appetite.

It is a pity that I don't know what kind of code is used in things like Smart Building Tool in FM8 or its equivalent in City Designer for CC3+. If I could see their code, I could understand it and develop a similar code for sci-fi setting like Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.

[Mark Oliva]

It is a pity that I don't know what kind of code is used in fings like Smart Building too on FM8 or on City Designer for CC3+. If I could see their code, I could understand it and develop a similar code for sci-fi setting like Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.

???#!!?

What is a fing? And what kind of code do you mean? And what is a Smart Building?

Sorry. You really lost me here.

I used to get complimented on my programming and upon my work as a programming teacher before I retired, so I assume I wasn't all that bad. Of course, I did only data base programming, not graphical stuff. Still... Nonetheless ...

[nichendrix]

???#!!?

What is a fing? And what kind of code do you mean? And what is a Smart Building?

Sorry. You really lost me here.

It was supposed to be things.

It's one of the issues of having SwiftKey configured to work on multiple languages, it takes just a random wrong swipe with your thumb to inadvertently change which language the spellchecker will use.

I used to get complimented on my programming and upon my work as a programming teacher before I retired, so I assume I wasn't all that bad. Of course, I did only data base programming, not graphical stuff. Still... Nonetheless ...

Part of my daily work is to develop applications and simulations so my programming skills are still sharp. I'm also used to develop add-ons, plug-ins and tools for AutoCAD/Revit, so I know more or less how to handle creating a new tool to perform some desirable graphical output.

What I don't know is how these mapping software handle these things. Since I don't know how the software works, I can't develop a script to do/automate it.

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[Mark Oliva]

It was supposed to be things.

OK. That clears that up!

What I don't know is how these mapping software handle these things. Since I don't know how the software works, I can't develop a script to do/automate it.

I'm not sure want you want to automate. There are drawing tools in CC3+ that are quite easy to make. They don't involve coding. There's a PDF book by Remy Monsen in Norway (written in English) that gives complete instruction in how to do this and almost anything else that one can do with CC3+. You can buy it from ProFantasy. The macro programming language also is included.

Any kind of tool that one would use in FM8 already is built in, as far as my imagination can conceive of things. If you have some ideas in mind for specific tools, tell me what you need to know. (I know FM8 pretty thoroughly. I wrote one of the two manuals for it.)

If you want to learn the secrets of making MapForgre add-ons, I'm afraid you'll have to pry those secrets out of Heruca.

After a lot of consideration I've decided to give a chance to the combo FM8+AS3. If I don't like it, I'll try MapForge or CC3+.

That route certainly should bring you to the best possible result.

[nichendrix]

I'm not sure want you want to automate. There are drawing tools in CC3+ that are quite easy to make. They don't involve coding. There's a PDF book by Remy Monsen in Norway (written in English) that gives complete instruction in how to do this and almost anything else that one can do with CC3+. You can buy it from ProFantasy. The macro programming language also is included.

I was thinking about something very similar to Smart Building Tool on FM8, but making random sci-fi buildings for city maps.

Obviously the easiest way would use the AutoCAD approach and create a library of buildings and adding it randomly on the map by hand, but this way, but what I've found interesting in the Smart Building Tool was that it implement random variations on the buildings and sometimes is even able adapt its design to the designated boundaries.

In the end my idea is to implement random variation of the geometry of the buildings and the elements on the rooftops and avoid the "feeling" that it is just a few buildings that were cut'n'pasted gazillion times over.

In the NBOS forum, @Ed_NBOS suggested that flat roofed buildings could be easily created with Polypath Tool, I didn't have time to test it.

Any kind of tool that one would use in FM8 already is built in, as far as my imagination can conceive of things. If you have some ideas in mind for specific tools, tell me what you need to know. (I know FM8 pretty thoroughly. I wrote one of the two manuals for it.)

If I were doing medieval fantasy maps I could certainly agree that FM8 and CC3+ probably have far more tools than anyone could possibly hope using.

But if you're mapping anything not related to medieval fantasy, things are not easy. Not only the programs offer less tools, but a some of the most interesting tools are not usable on other contexts.

Even looking at the stuff running around the Internet, be it paid or free, you'll find that there aren't that much to look for and you'll notice that most of the stuff you find most of then are duplicated instance of the Dubdjini Archive content.

I know a few people doing beautiful sci-fi maps and deckplans, most of them do most of the art from scratch, using very few things from internet content. Unfortunately what they all have in common is that they have far more available free time for doing their maps and more artistic skills than me.

But let me just dig into FM8 for a few months and see how hard is to make sci-fi stuff with it.

That route certainly should bring you to the best possible result.

I liked AS3 a lot, despite sometimes it being a little quirky, I've even started to use it to map/log my astronomical observation.

FM8 seems to be very straight forward, but I didn't dig deeply into it, but I already noticed the immense assimetry between the amount of medieval fantasy content compared to content for other types of settings.

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