OMG .... WOTC does it again

[Redrobes]

Sounds good. Santa put a 4e PHB in my stockings so ill be checking out the new system now.

[Robbie]

get you a DMG...its one of the best written DMGs evar.

[jfrazierjr]

get you a DMG...its one of the best written DMGs evar.

I agree that it's one of the best versions of this tome overall, but I actually find most of it not worth the price IF you are an experienced DM. It has some excellent pointers on creating a world, creatures, cosmology,handling various player types, handling different campaign types, etc, but for me as a DM of 20+ years, that's stuff I already know about. For a new DM, it's a nice little gold mine but for me, there are only a few pages in the book that really make it usefull to have. You might want to skim through the book at a local bookstore to see if it really can benefit you or not before you purchase(or try to get a discounted version from an online store)

[Robbie]

Eh, thats sorta true...there's some useful tables and guidelines for treasure parcels (I found out I was WAY under-rewarding my players by going off of what I knew to be true from 3rd Ed), the encounter building guidelines and Non-Combat encounter guidelines are also must-haves. But you're right, 50% of the book is how to be a good DM...

[jfrazierjr]

Eh, thats sorta true...there's some useful tables and guidelines for treasure parcels (I found out I was WAY under-rewarding my players by going off of what I knew to be true from 3rd Ed), the encounter building guidelines and Non-Combat encounter guidelines are also must-haves. But you're right, 50% of the book is how to be a good DM...

Bah... I give the players what I want them to have, bwahahahaha

Yea, there are a few things that make it worth it, that's why I said get it from an online retailer at a discount if you can. Heck, unless you really want that new book smell, I would have settled for a used copy at 65% off cover.

Here's what I like about it that you can't find elsewhere:

• Diseases
• Encounter building (though DDI has a way to do this "online")
• Treasure parcels
• Running Skill challenges

But, as I said, I pretty much give the players what I want them to have. In my upcoming game, it won't matter if they find 500 or 5000 gp per level since there is hardly any place to spend any money, much less buy magical items which is one of the primary reasons to accumulate gold in the first place. Heh.. they can hoard the gold to pay for a castle, but good luck finding someone to build it for them, at least for a while.

[TheElf]

First of all: I don't like 4th edition. But I see it changed to be better in certain areas. To me the worst time was when they released 3rd edition, and it wasn't because balance consideration.

That was the point where we got overly complicated tactical combat, that has rules for everything, even if those rules aren't logical. The complexity of rules won't allow fast combat (and a combat scene should be fast and maybe cinematic).

We got tactical character building, and who builds a stronger character became one of the challenges in game. The differences in power level became a problem and not a roleplaying opportunity. Several builds I would like to try were either inefficient, or very hard to implement.

Even with the not so flexible 2nd edition I had better results at playing what I would like to play.

Also: Balanced encounters instead of reasonable world building was a change I hated.

Strong focus on combat encounters was another change I hated.

And soon I seen problems with community limits (you can't build a house in a small village acording to some guidebooks), about free market for magical items, about everyone having armor made of rare material. And speaking about finances: The income and the suggested wealth / level were created without thinking about money spent by the character, without the costs of potions, item charges, etc. used in encounters.

About some side effects of tactical character buildings: Where the characters multiclassed in ways they couldn't explain with a story. And when people suggested: That if I want to play some healer, I should forget about lower level healing spells, and just bring a "wand of cure light wounds" like everyone else was also a point where I said: enough is enough, I don't like this game.

I was quite fed up with the fact that after "streamlining" you had a game that is slower than the previous edition. Preparation was much slower. And the "easy to memorize" rules was built around the idea: you memorize raw data, feats, classes, etc. and use this information to make strong builds if you don't want to copy an existing one. Ohh, and potential new players who were intimidated by the amount of core books before seen the same amount of core material, so attracting new players this way didn't help.

They changed races, they changed monsters (including some of my favorites), they changed settings and eliminated quite a few. And I asked: I see these problems, but I buy a game to have fun, and it isn't providing that. Why should I choose it?

So for now: I play D&D, when the group insists on using it, but otherwise try to avoid it.

With 4th edition WOTC had a good chance to get me playing D&D again. Elimination of tactical character building was a good thing, and I like it. Skill challenges are good things. Making combat faster is a good thing. Elimination of encounter levels, etc. is a good thing. Changes to in game economy is a good thing. The fact that when they say magical items and items of rare material are meant to be rare and fantastic and not everyday comodities they make sure it is reflected in the game is a good thing.

Still 3 "well written" rulebook, when you don't need most of them isn't good for attracting new players. They have reduced the price for the core, but they are still intimidating for newbies.

And I see why people love these changes. I would love them, if there wouldn't be any deeper problem that makes me say No to D&D4.

Changes to world, Points of Light, square grid and their geometry, "square shaped fireball", changes to races, elimination of some monsters, elimination of some concepts (like Blood War)... The fact that many characters with valid story still can't be built (system doesn't model characters well), still there are odd results when the system tries to model the world.

Still, the magic system is presented in a way that your magic users probably won't discuss how their spells work, since WOTC decided such differences aren't important (and it can hurt your chances with some stories).

But I think, if we get tools to build character images...
If their virtual tabletop is good for other editions and games...
If the information on the subscribtion site can be useful even if you don't play D&D.

5$ a month isn't much for the service they plan to offer.

[RPMiller]

TheElf, it sounds like you would really do well to look at point based "generic" systems rather than the leveling class based setting specific systems. Assuming you haven't already that is.

Recommendations would be in no particular order: Savage Worlds (extremely fast character creation and combats), GURPS (crunchy, but no specific setting, build almost any character you could want, combats are long), HERO (same as GURPS, but even more flexibility in character design), Action! System (fast character creation and combats, free download if you can find it, generic like the others with a lot of flexibility, no "official" rules for "powers/spells" but there are some third party ones out there).

There are quite a lot of D&D gamers using MapTool now as their VT since WotC's release keeps falling through. In fact the latest version of MT has become so powerful that fans have built pretty much the whole system into it via macros and the like. You may want to check it out. Oh, and it is free. (link in my sig)

[esmale]

You forgot Chimera

Very fast, customisable, and easy to learn. Plus, there's a rumour that the author is working on version 2.0 of the game, which is touted as even faster (frex, 20 minutes to create a character).

Cheers,
-Erin

[Midgardsormr]

20 minutes? That's absurd! Try Risus.

[TheElf]

Right now, I am working on my own system, which might be quite interesting

I think there are 3 things that keep me trying to play D&D.

• Some settings (ok Planescape is an AD&D 2nd edition setting...)
• Some character concepts I have for PCs and NPCs
• D&D people tend to love maps, and I love maps too

And also it would be hard to get a HERO group there.

But I love many other systems / gaves as well