Haster, Imperial City

[Karro]

Thank You Karro! This is my major gripe about most city maps I see. They all seem to be City Size Suburbias. With yards etc, that not a single medieval city in the real world has ever had (if someone can post a real world medieval city up as an example of the exception, I would be most appreciative).

I looked at Haster and noted that other than the outlying regions, most of the city is indeed packed (I think the outer regions should be a little more packed, but am forgiving as the inner regions fulfill this).

Yeah, while it's not a criticism I've ever leveled at any particular map, I've found it to be generally true. Whenever you look at pictures of medieval streets and old cities, that's one of the standard aspects of the medieval city streetscape.

[Gandwarf]

Well, medieval cities and even walled cities did have gardens. The herbs were used by households for medicinal and cooking purposes. Some city gardens even had apple and pear trees. Only in the most populous cities was garden space almost completely crowded out, but public parks sprang into existance in later ages.

I am now quoting from "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies, two amateur historians. A great book I recently bought.

Also, I know lots of cities in the Netherlands had herb gardens, some even existing today. I did a search in books.google.com and got more examples, including a book about herb gardens. A quote:

"The enclosed privy garden, close by the town walls or flanked by other buildings in the crowded, fortified medieval towns, can be adapted as a pattern for modern herb garden designs."

And a final piece of evidence. Most of the old city maps I have seen feature garden space. Some examples:

Aachen
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/ge...erg_I_12_b.jpg

Bruges
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/be...erg_I_16_b.jpg

London
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/br...berg_I_A_b.jpg

These maps were mostly made in the 16th century, but I can't imagine those cities didn't have gardens a few centuries earlier.

Anyway, I am not saying the medieval city had a lot of space for gardens, but they certainly weren't as rare as I once believed myself.
(they were probably more rare in the early Middle Ages, but looking at those maps they might even have been common in the late Middle Ages).

/rant
/threadjack

[Gandwarf]

Anyway, looking at the map again: beautiful. I nicked it for inspiration
Don't have any suggestions at the moment.

[Karro]

Well, medieval cities and even walled cities did have gardens. The herbs were used by households for medicinal and cooking purposes. Some city gardens even had apple and pear trees. Only in the most populous cities was garden space almost completely crowded out, but public parks sprang into existance in later ages.

I am now quoting from "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies, two amateur historians. A great book I recently bought.

Also, I know lots of cities in the Netherlands had herb gardens, some even existing today. I did a search in books.google.com and got more examples, including a book about herb gardens. A quote:

"The enclosed privy garden, close by the town walls or flanked by other buildings in the crowded, fortified medieval towns, can be adapted as a pattern for modern herb garden designs."

And a final piece of evidence. Most of the old city maps I have seen feature garden space. Some examples:

Aachen
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/ge...erg_I_12_b.jpg

Bruges
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/be...erg_I_16_b.jpg

London
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/br...berg_I_A_b.jpg

These maps were mostly made in the 16th century, but I can't imagine those cities didn't have gardens a few centuries earlier.

Anyway, I am not saying the medieval city had a lot of space for gardens, but they certainly weren't as rare as I once believed myself.
(they were probably more rare in the early Middle Ages, but looking at those maps they might even have been common in the late Middle Ages).

/rant
/threadjack

Actually, those maps illustrate the point: the buildings themselves are wall-to-wall against each other. It is typically in the spaces enclosed by a "wall of buildings" where the garden areas exist. The criticism being discussed is when individual domiciles are shown with a stretch of space between it and the next the domicile over. There do appear to be a few examples in those maps of isolated domiciles with large garden areas adjacent and no adjacent buildings, but those appear to be few in comparison to those that share wallspace.

Cool maps, by-the-way.

[Gandwarf]

I probably misread, thinking you guys were denying garden space in medieval cities
What I personally found amazing is that most of these maps display a lot of open space in these walled off cities. Was this wishful thinking of the cartographer?

Anyway, I agree a lot of buildings shared walls in ancient cities and they formed blocks. But as you said, individual buildings were certainly a fact as well.

That's what I like about Haster, it looks like a good mix. I just miss the alleys and other lesser streets.

Edit:
Reading the comments again it's Neonknight I was replying to.

With yards etc, that not a single medieval city in the real world has ever had (if someone can post a real world medieval city up as an example of the exception, I would be most appreciative).

It sounded like Neonknight was denying medieval cities had gardens and yards...

[NeonKnight]

One will note from looking at the maps that while there is indeed gardens within a city (and I am most certainly not saying they did not exist), each map depicts the gardens as existing behind the row of houses. These were not the gardens of what I often see in a city map of a Front/Back/Side yards, but more of a Backyard aspect, or in the Bruges' or London maps, of enclosed within a ring of buildings.

Another good example of private gardens is this shot of a district of Naples, Italy:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...09645&t=k&z=17
The Gardens are in the centre of a cluster of buildings. They have likely been converted to something less of a garden in modern times, but in the past would ahve likely been location of privies, and Gardens.

[NeonKnight]

It sounded like Neonknight was denying medieval cities had gardens and yards...

No, I was not saying cities never had green space within them, but they did not have 'yards' in the sense we as modern people think of them. The 'White Picket Fence' ideal of the Modern World of a house with a Front/Back and side yards, with a manicured lawn. I see a lot of city maps that almost typify that ideal, and they really did not exist in medieval times. Unless you were rich, really, really rich. And even then, the yards would have been enclosed behind walls & gate.

[Gandwarf]

One will note from looking at the maps that while there is indeed gardens within a city (and I am most certainly saying they did not exist) ...

Uh... you are confusing me. The first part of that sentence acknowledges gardens in a city, but the second seems to indicate you are denying that gardens existed?

That kind of confusion prompted me to rant about gardens in cities

I agree with both of you regarding the discussion about the layout of cities.
Also, I fully agree with the yard idea as well. They certainly weren't the yards we modern people are used to and enjoy.

Seems the discussion just died out then

[NeonKnight]

Fixed quoted part by Gandwarf to read what I am trying to say. LOL

[Gandwarf]

Fixed quoted part by Gandwarf to read what I am trying to say. LOL

I kinda figured you were missing another "not" in that sentence

Can't wait to see joferma getting back to this thread and see what we have done with it...