4E Dungeons & Dragons - Verdict?

[msa]

WotC is not trying to steal players. They know those players will continue to spend time/money playing WoW. What they DO want to do though is to steal some of THAT money and time.

Yeah, that's a statement I find much more agreeable. I'm sure they also learned a lot about developing a good game through their DDO experience.

IMO, 4e is just so much easier to learn, largely because its so much more consistent. No more special rules for every situation. Every version has done this. Reading 1st edition you see crazy rules about how to keep from drowning, bargaining for goods, etc. 2nd didn't do much to improve this, and also continued to use awful systems like the thieving skills. 3e went a long way to improve the inconsistency problem.

I feel like in 4e, MMOs finally seriously asked the question "why can't you use the same rules for *everything*". It makes the game so much easier to grasp and makes all classes much more accessible. And now that I see what that looks like, I'm glad they did.

[NeonKnight]

Unfortunately. some people have chosen not to play nice and keep the discussion civil. As a result, I have the unfortunate task of performing a first in the Cartographer's Guild and close a thread due to inflammatory and baiting comments.

I do hope I never have to perform this task again

[RPMiller]

I am reopening this thread as the initial reason for locking it has been resolved. We do not wish to use a heavy hand when it comes to content on the Guild, but unfortunately a need to step in for the sake of our members may happen. We would like for this thread to return to the previous non-confrontational tone it had and look forward to the continued conversation.

As a reminder to everyone, the Guilds posting guidelines are clearly stated in the FAQ, and we would ask that if you have not yet read them that you do so and any questions can be posted in a separate thread, or PM'd to the CLs.

Thank you for your understading and let the conversation resume.

[wormspeaker]

I've played all versions of D&D except 3.5 (having played 3.0 and seeing no reason to re-buy the books) and including basic D&D. I would have to say that 4th is probably the best one from a mechanical stand point. I don't like all the rules (skill challenges and saving throws for example) but they are balanced. Perhaps maybe too balanced, but I'll take that over the alternative.

I will say that the published adventures I have bought are very combat oriented. They are for the most part a series of combat encounters and while there is some bare minimum flavor text and NPC background, they are built around a series of skirmishes rather than what I would normally equate with a role play centric adventure. That does not mean that 4th edition is more combat oriented than previous versions, but you certainly need to bring the role play yourself.

I like 4th edition D&D because it is very accessible and has the D&D ability to pull in players to form a group. But now that I have one, I'm going to finish this campaign up sometime late this year and start something different. Probably something that is character driven instead of encounter driven with a modern setting.

[Nexis]

I'm very happy to see this re opened. I am still debating ither to get 3.5 or go to 4. As I have only run up to 2nd. When they came out with d20 I didn't understand the system. Well that was 10 or so years and I have got the itch back to re enter the gaming world so I realy appreciate this chat. What I need to find is a good tutorial showing the mechanics at work to see if it's what I want to run. I don't mind simplified rules as long as it opens it up to more complex gameing. I need to know BEFORE I shell out the $$$$ and then find I don't like it. And its very hard to find 3.5. No one is parting with their books.

[Gamerprinter]

So I learned a bunch about 4e this week, only because I participated in hot-headed discussion regarding the idea of the 4e monk having psionics as a power source instead of Ki.

I tried to defend the idea of Ki, and lost.

I've always felt psionics were broken in every edition from 1e to 3.5. When I learned 4e was making the monk powered by psionics instead of Ki - I went nuts. Even though I shouldn't because I don't even play 4e.

Their defense proved insurmountable and I had to give in at the end.

Basically this whole, all classes get "powers" thing, and that all "powers" need to have at least 4 classes assigned to it, to be considered a usable "power". I don't get the necessity for that. What's wrong with a power having only 1 or 2 classes assigned to it?

Anyway, under their powers system, psionics works completely different and may actually be unbroken and work in that game. I can see how a monk could be seen as psionic, if working in the same sense as KI.

However, the more I learned, the less I cared for the system. So this week's worth of conflagration has taught me, that this is definitely not for me, the game that is. I'm dead set on 3.5 compatability and Pathfinder, as my only solution.

At least I can say I understand the 4e system better than I had, for what that's worth.

GP

[Gamerprinter]

I'm very happy to see this re opened. I am still debating ither to get 3.5 or go to 4. As I have only run up to 2nd. When they came out with d20 I didn't understand the system. Well that was 10 or so years and I have got the itch back to re enter the gaming world so I realy appreciate this chat. What I need to find is a good tutorial showing the mechanics at work to see if it's what I want to run. I don't mind simplified rules as long as it opens it up to more complex gameing. I need to know BEFORE I shell out the $$$$ and then find I don't like it. And its very hard to find 3.5. No one is parting with their books.

Just for something different, download the Paizo Pathfinder Beta rules. Even though their will be some changes from it to the final format of Pathfinder, it might be a great way to check this new version of 3.5.

Go to the Paizo.com site, the download is accsesable from the home page, download it, and read. It will at least give you a good idea on how 3.5 is different the 3.0, as well as a few fixes that Pathfinder does to that system.

I can't help you with 4e though.

GP

[Midgardsormr]

What I need to find is a good tutorial showing the mechanics at work to see if it's what I want to run.

The Keep on the Shadowfell adventure module has a distilled rule book and pregen characters. It's still a bit pricey at a suggested retail of US$30, but if you can find another GM in your area who's already run it, they might be willing to loan you the materials or sell it to you at a discount.


Concerning GP's comments about psionics and power sources, I think the reason they dictate a minimum of four classes supported by a power source is so they can publish more easily. I'd imagine they want to spread the support fairly evenly across all the classes, and having too many or too few classes using a given power source means lop-sided coverage as they continue to release splat books. Wizards R&D is very good about keeping things symmetrical; if they break that symmetry, it usually is quite deliberate, and there is a reason for it.

If you're at all interested in the inner workings of Wizards' R&D, I recommend reading Mark Rosewater's column at magicthegathering.com. Actually, here's a link to the archive: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...rk%20Rosewater

Of course, it's specific to Magic design, but he occasionally talks about more general game design topics. I don't have the time to pick out the gems at the moment, unfortunately.

[Nexis]

Just for something different, download the Paizo Pathfinder Beta rules. Even though their will be some changes from it to the final format of Pathfinder, it might be a great way to check this new version of 3.5.

Go to the Paizo.com site, the download is accsesable from the home page, download it, and read. It will at least give you a good idea on how 3.5 is different the 3.0, as well as a few fixes that Pathfinder does to that system.

I can't help you with 4e though.

GP

Thank's I'll do that.

[Nexis]

The Keep on the Shadowfell adventure module has a distilled rule book and pregen characters.

I'm gona look that up and see. Thanks