New to Digital Cartography? Software General Information

[dormouse]

Interesting discussion point. It definitely has the most capability to cram the most stuff onto a map space and navigate around. But if we're talking about map making, where the end result is a jpg, is it a great map maker ?

I don't know.

iirc , it doesn't have drawing tools, so all of your page content has to be premade images or text. And there isn't a visual way to browse for images to put onto the map, which would make map making a tad tedious (unless you have all your image names memorized).

Although this could just be me not knowing the UI well enough.

To me the UI was not intuitive, but I haven't spent much time looking at it. But then, a lot of the other UIs are described as not inutitive too.

If it doesn't compare well, then that is what I'll find, and I'll describe the process as well as I can, so people know what's involved.

[dormouse]

This is what makes me feel a little daunted by the comparison with all the mapping ability. If you try to force the app to make the maps like the others then it probably wont come off as good. However if you tried to make the kind of maps that VDale likes with the others then I think they would come off worse. The comparisons could be open to a lot of prejudice.

Comparisons and opinion can be open to prejudice, but I'd certainly expect any comparison I make to be pretty fair. What I would say is that I was pointed to ViewingDale as a mapmaker (though I'm certainly not convinced it is one really), and so also MapTool. I'll only be looking at them in terms of making maps.

What I'll do is to start with designing a full range of maps (of the types that I have a use for) and only then to start to reproduce them in the mapmaker. If ViewingDale doesn't like the maps that I have a use for, then I assume it won't come off well; equally if it does like some of the type of maps that I use, then it should do well: I can only wait and see - and it might well be 8 or 9 months before I get around to ViewingDale. And certainly, the end point is expected to be a map that can be printed or used in a range of VTTs rather than ViewingDale specifically. At the end I would certainly hope to have a knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each program - so far as their mapping capability is concerned anyway.

[dormouse]

now with the new random drawing macro, I'm betting we could do these in like 30 seconds and make them look awesome.

my heart sinks. I do have MacroExpress for my own stuff, but I can't say that I like getting into macros for normal work in a program. Useful for personalisation, and certainly spreads 'programming' effort, but not something I like to have to do in the normal way of things.

[Redrobes]

...I was pointed to ViewingDale as a mapmaker (though I'm certainly not convinced it is one really)

and w.r.t ViewingDale...

...I haven't spent much time looking at it.

These statements don't really tally up to the assertion that your not prejudiced. I hope you try it and like it but I get the feeling that its not going to come off well no matter what. Your convinced its not a map maker when I have been submitting maps for over a year here and just posted one up from the live cam footage of me making it. Is the image not a map ? I dunno - I would have said it was. All the icons used in it are either shipped with the box set, ones which I have posted on these forums, there's the Devin goblin and a few Kimmo's characters and the tree & toadstool are downloads from the supplemental icons off the web page. I.e. nothing in that image is using icons which are not readily available and free if not as part of the box set so anyone could have done that with it.

I deliberately made it to look like this one on RPG Map Share
http://rpgmapshare.com/index.php?q=g...g2_itemId=8484
http://rpgmapshare.com/index.php?q=g...g2_itemId=8488
which I did years ago and its been well received with a high vote mark - even by Dorpond of MT. I think anyone can see that these maps could have been created in about an hour or maybe a lot less. Oh I just don't know what else I can say really.

[dormouse]

These statements don't really tally up to the assertion that your not prejudiced. I hope you try it and like it but I get the feeling that its not going to come off well no matter what. Your convinced its not a map maker

Well, you're the one who said

This is what makes me feel a little daunted by the comparison with all the mapping ability. If you try to force the app to make the maps like the others then it probably wont come off as good.

and I didn't say I am convinced it is not a map maker, I said I was not convinced that it was. As far as I can see from brief look, it is a combination of a VTT, a map browser that can be shared between users and a mapmaker. Just as MapTools is primarily a VTT that also has the ability to make maps. And on your website, you describe it as "a new software application suite for your PC. It is a browser and editor for maps targeted at the fictional maps used with role playing games." Given that I said I was going to look at programs as they make maps (as opposed to any other function they have), what am I to make of the statement

If you try to force the app to make the maps like the others then it probably wont come off as good

?

And why should the fact that I have only spent a small amount of time looking at VD suggest prejudice? I've already said that I expect each program to take me approximately a month to work through. And I've not really looked at CC3 at all yet. Does
that mean I'm prejudiced against it? What it does mean is that I don't feel in a position to have my own opinions as yet.

I'm pretty experienced at examining things for what they are and making the most out of software programs. Sometimes the program makes it hard or impossible to do something, sometimes the way it does it is not the way you prefer (the difference between keyboard and mouse users is one of the most common); the first is a factor in the utility of the product, the second a factor in the suitability of the product for particular users. I would expect to look for both types of issue.

In practice, I suspect that all the programs can be made to produce all the maps fairly identically (though 2 - DungeonForge and, from what you say, ViewingDale - will need some work to be done in another program); it will mainly be a matter of how easily and how quickly they do it.

[RPMiller]

my heart sinks. I do have MacroExpress for my own stuff, but I can't say that I like getting into macros for normal work in a program. Useful for personalisation, and certainly spreads 'programming' effort, but not something I like to have to do in the normal way of things.

Oh... no the macro is already written and working. It is just a matter of adding a single token that contains the macro to your map and then executing it. So simple even I can run it. I would expect that the functionality will eventually be added directly into MT at some point in the next version. Right Trevor?

[trevor]

You betcha !

[RPMiller]

Anyway, the one minute path in a forest. Heres the vid. Took another 45 secs to put the arrow and text down.

Vid1

Do you have to use a path as a graphic, or can you draw your own? I'm assuming that you are using shortcut keys to switch between the various functions and windows?

Vid2

This doesn't show anything when it plays.

...and then another two minutes adding some forest fluff and some characters to the scene.

Vid3

So what this is saying is that for a whopping 3-4 mins of effort you can get a pretty decent battle map with characters placed down and it looks pretty reasonable zoomed up to character scale too - which is the whole point of using the zoom browser feature of a mapping app.

I have also used the preview mode in a few places just to show in action.

Hope thats explained it a bit more.

EDIT -- Just gotta fiddle with it a bit more. Prob half hour in total. Pic below.

Looks pretty good when it was finished. The only parts that bug me, is the not knowing what graphic I am pulling unless I have everything printed out to compare names to, or have the names memorized. Also, the possibility that there isn't an actual "brush" tool that allows me to draw what I want.

[Redrobes]

Dormouse: Ok I apologize and take it back then. I read...

...ViewingDale as a mapmaker (though I'm certainly not convinced it is one really),

...to be that you had decided with certainty that it was not a mapmaker already. If your not so certain and will look at it and decide then that is a much healthier point of view.

I know its not the all encompassing app and that it has its cons as well as pros but I think it fills in an area that is lacking in other apps. MapTools has better fog of war and other features esp in the VTT playability area. BattlegroundsRPG has a really thorough dice roller now and obviously PS and Gimp have great versatility etc. Anyway - will be interesting to see your conclusions then.

[trevor]

Do you have to use a path as a graphic, or can you draw your own?

From above:

Your right, it does not have drawing tools you do have to make tokens with a raster package.