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Quite a reply! Let's start with the sentence above, because it's incorrect. CC2 and CC2 Pro were vector mapping only programs, CC2 Pro with an exception for raster backgrounds. CC3 and CC3+ can make vector and raster maps and they also do a rather respectable job with mixing vector and raster, if that's what one wants.Originally Posted by Tiana
Part of your message is a bit problematical, because it goes back and forth between saying CC3 and CC3+, when it appears that you're using the two names to describe one and the same thing. That confuses because CC3 still has a lot of users, although it no longer is a current product. CC3+ is the successor to CC3 and the current product. Mixing the names leads to confusion for the following reason. When one says that CC3 can do this or that, but one really means CC3+, a CC3 user may say, I didn't know I can do that! How?" And afterward, he or she may indeed try to find out how, only to learn that it's one of the many new things that CC3+ can do and CC3 can't. Moral of this story: If one wants to communicate well, it's best to call things by their real names.
Before I continue, someone may wonder if I know what I'm talking about. Everyone will have to decide that for themselves, but I do have and know how to use all of the following:
Campaign Cartographer 3+ with most of the add-ons, Fractal Mapper 8, Fractal Mapper 9 Beta, Other World Mapper, Dundjinni, Map Forge, The GIMP, Paint.net and probably some other things I haven't used for a while that don't come to mind immediately. Our Vintyri™ Project has made and offers 3rd party add-ons for CC3+, FM8, Other World Mapper and Dundjinni.
Tiana's post deals very much with the type of cartography that involves making one's own mapping objects. Cartographers who work on that basis make up a substantial part of the guild's membership. Another substantial part of the membership is the group of cartographers who do not want to do their own artwork but rather are seeking a program that allows one to fill a map easily with pre-made objects from the program's maker and/or 3rd party vendors. Products like CC3+, Fractal Mapper 8, Other World Mapper, MapForge and Dundjinni do that. Products like the GIMP, Paint.net, Krita, Paint Tool Sai, Photoshop, Photo Paint, Paint Shop Pro, Painter, Photopea, Affinity etc. do not. That seems to be the case here:
Hernan has added another interesting aside to this discussion:
I agree with this. Most CC3/CC3+ maps ... with a few very impressive exceptions ... tend to look like CC3/CC3+ maps, which can be pretty but usually are rather unimaginative. The maps that Dundjinni users put out were ... for me ... far more impressive than most of the CC3/CC3+ output that I've seen over the years. And that opinion is, of course, by it's nature absolutely subjective. But to continue with it, I would add that the same quality assessment applies to the unofficial successor to Dundjinni, Map Forge, which can do much more than Dundjinni. Here one also should add that Hernan (user name Heruca, is the author of MapForge.
I seldom recommend for or against a specific program or group of programs because the needs and desires of individual cartographers vary greatly, and there is no program or even group of programs that I think will answer everyone's needs. I also think in discussing such things, one need look separately at cartographic programs and at graphical programs.
I would put the following into the category of cartographic programs, which I'll examine in more detail:
Campaign Cartographer 3, Fractal Mapper 8, Other World Mapper, Dundjinni and Map Forge.
I would put the following into the category of graphical programs. I don't intend to look at them in more detail because they're somewhat aside from the goal of the original poster's query:
The GIMP, Paint.net, Krita, Paint Tool Sai, Photoshop, Photo Paint, Paint Shop Pro, Painter, Photopea, Affinity and many more similar applications.
It also is important for Windows users to give some thought to the question of 64- vs. 32-bit applications. Most Windows users today have 64-bit versions of Windows with two- and four-core processors, high ability graphic cards and between 8 and 64 GB of memory. Most of the cartographic programs I listed above are pitifully obsolete 32-bit versions that allow you to use only one processor core and only 4 GB of your memory. At least one of them even ignores your expensive graphic card. This obsolescence makes a growing number of problems these days for cartographers making large and complex maps who find their work crashing and/or their ability to export large scale maps inhibited by the software's inability to use the their computers' resources. Anyone looking to buy a cartographic program for more than relatively simple maps would do well to ponder how this obsolescence might affect their work.
Let's start with Other World Mapper from Three Minds Software:
That's true, but it's not what I consider to be the main weak point in OWM. For starters, OWM is the only one of the cartographic programs I listed above that is not an obsolete 32-bit application. OWM for Windows is a snappy, fast-running and relatively bug-free program that really sings most of the time and has unlimited potential. It also is available in Mac and LINUX versions. That notwithstanding, OWM has what we consider a very serious design problem in the current version 1.02 that makes it useless for mapping the Jörđgarđ™ campaign setting of our Vintyri Project. OWM uses a large layering system for the various objects in a map. The program assigns various abilities and effects to some but not all layers. It also uses a default system to decide upon which layer an object will be placed. As a result, certain abilities and effects cannot be placed upon certain objects because OWM places the objects on the "wrong" layer, bringing the cartographer to a dead end. Until Three Minds Software finds its way to giving the cartographer the ability to reassign objects to a layer of his or her choice, that dead end will remain, and the program will be useless to us despite all of its great qualities. Unfortunately.
Fractal Mapper 8/Fractal Mapper 9 from NBOS Software:
Fractal Mapper is available only in a Windows version. Like almost everything else, FM8 has the problems of all 32-bit software. FM9, in comparison, is a 64-bit program that currently is in beta status. No release date for the full version has been announced yet. We have been running tests with the beta version of FM9, and it already is a clean program that runs smoothly and takes full advantage of our 64-bit computers. The 64-bit beta produces maps that FM8 is unable to read. As a result, we can use FM9 at present only for testing and not for production. However, FM9 can process FM8 maps without trouble, so an upgrade should be no problem. Both FM8 and FM9 are solid, workaday cartographic programs without the bells, whistles and steam pops that are offered with CC3+ or OWM. Like CC3+ and OWM, FM8 and FM9 can do both vector and raster mapping as well as a mix of the two. In terms of making maps, FM8 can do most but not all things that CC3+ without add-ons can do and some things that CC3+ cannot do. What FM8 can do, it can do much faster than CC3+. I have no other application on my main working PC that runs as stably as FM8. We have been using FM8 as our main mapping program at the Vintyri Project since 1996. The last time that FM8 crashed on me was several years ago with Version 8.10d. I've never had a crash with Version 8.10e or the current version 8.10f. However, for many users, FM8 and perhaps FM9 will have a serious shortcoming for some users. The sets of fill patterns and symbols - both raster and vector - that are delivered with FM8 are woefully small, and the vector graphics are antiques from a long vanished computer era. That's balanced somewhat by the fact that there are more than 10,000 high quality raster symbols and fills available in freeware packages, and if one is careful to comply with ProFantasy's restrictions on object embedding, one also can use all of the many CC3+ symbol sets in FM8 and FM9.
Dundjinni from Dundjinni Enterprises
Dundjinni long was the great legend among RPG cartographic programs, available for Windows and Macs. It no longer is a current program. It still does have a large body of users. But its obsolescence goes far beyond its being a 32-bit application. It is very difficult to get it to run under Windows 10. In its day, it was THE program for mapping dungeons and battlemaps. Dundjinni users, as Hernan remarked above, regularly produce dungeon and battlemaps far superior to most of those made by CC3+ users, and that applies just as well to users of OWM and FM8. The last update of Dundjinni was released 14 years ago. The program is an antique. MapForge generally is seen as the up-to-date successor to Dundjinni.
Map Forge from Battleground Games
When it comes to making dungeon and battlemaps, no other cartographic program comes within a country mile of MapForge. It does everything Dundjinni did and much more. One hardly could imagine a dungeon designer's tool that isn't included in MapForge. The graphics delivered with CC3+, FM8 and OWM look like refugees from 1930s Disney cartoons in comparison to those delivered with MapForge. However, there are downsides for some cartographers. There is no 64-bit version. The wonders of MapForge dwindle quickly when one tries to make larger villages, cities or overland maps. The MapForge domain, like that of Dundjinni before it, reaches its borders when it tries to go beyond dungeon and battlemap cartography. And MapForge needs to be outfitted with art packs. Map-making is limited if one uses only the art packs delivered with MapForge. Art packs come at a price, making MapForge a potentially expensive program in the long-run. One can import one's third-party PNG graphics collections into MapForge, but one loses with them the advantages that art packs offer.
Campaign Cartographer 3+ from ProFantasy Software
In a sense, I've saved the best and the worst for the last. Let us see if that's the case, before CC3+ users start the weeping, moaning and gnashing of teeth. Let's begin with the best part. CC3+ alone is an excellent program for making overland maps. With add-ons it becomes an excellent program for dungeon, village and city maps as well as for battlemaps. It has an incredible amount of tools available for every purpose that do glorious and wondrous things. In these respects, only MapForge can outshine it, and then only on dungeon and battlemap level. No one has better support services than ProFantasy. In most respects, CC3+ is an excellent program. But what about the worst? CC3+ has all of the disadvantages of 32-Bit software, and it ignores the graphic card. For some time, ProFantasy has mentioned vaguely a future 64-bit CC4, but to date it's been only vaporware. CC3+ has been around for several years, but a relatively clean-running version, like those of MapForge, FM8 and OWM, continues to elude ProFantasy, although the program already is on it 25th patch. To be fair, some of those patches were released to improve or expand the program rather than fix it. A lot of users have a lot of problems with CC3+ and its add-ons. I'm not going to make my own arguments or contentions here to support that appraisal. Instead, I'll recommend that anyone who doubts these conclusions go to the ProFantasy Community Forum at http://forum.profantasy.com/ to read the last year's worth of postings. There users will tell the story for themselves. You'll find nothing to compare with this plethora of problem postings on the ProFantasy forum at the OWM, NBOS or MapForge forums. But that brings us back to the "best" again. You'll find little anywhere that compares with ProFantasy's excellent support services for customers who have such problems.
So ... at the start of all of this, damonjynx wanted suggestions. They're difficult to make. But the above might help a bit.
Happy weekend. Servus,
