Atlas Awards discussion/suggestions/feedback

[Falconius]

Best way to think of the large to small scale of maps is to think of how big an object would be represented on the map, in a large scale map a house would be very big, in a small scale map a house would be very small.

@Naima

That seems like too many categories to me. I seriously doubt we'd want more than 8, and even that seems slightly high, maybe more like 5 would be an ideal number. What I meant was hand drawn style (again a majority of maps here, so maybe it's not a worth while categorization anyways).

In regard to your main categories, but to me world continent and region are all kind of the same thing, they generally all use the same styles and iconography. And "space" seems out of place. Creative is such a nebulous term it might as well just be "Best Overall Map" or "Your personal Favourite Map". Which perhaps should be a category and be chosen from the entire field of maps nominated from the other categories.

So let me counter suggest:
Tiny Scale (from world to space to planar etc.)
Small Scale (continental, regional, to country)
Large scale (city-ish)
Structural scale (basically when you are drawing the insides of something, so dungeons to ship[s to buildings to encounter maps)
and Overall Favourite

And I guess leave out style all together. Few problems: Very unlikely that B+W or monochrome maps would win. Very unlikely that a non fantasy map would win. Very unlike that a non hand drawn style map would win.

[Naima]

Best way to think of the large to small scale of maps is to think of how big an object would be represented on the map, in a large scale map a house would be very big, in a small scale map a house would be very small.

@Naima

That seems like too many categories to me. I seriously doubt we'd want more than 8, and even that seems slightly high, maybe more like 5 would be an ideal number. What I meant was hand drawn style (again a majority of maps here, so maybe it's not a worth while categorization anyways).

In regard to your main categories, but to me world continent and region are all kind of the same thing, they generally all use the same styles and iconography. And "space" seems out of place. Creative is such a nebulous term it might as well just be "Best Overall Map" or "Your personal Favourite Map". Which perhaps should be a category and be chosen from the entire field of maps nominated from the other categories.

So let me counter suggest:
Tiny Scale (from world to space to planar etc.)
Small Scale (continental, regional, to country)
Large scale (city-ish)
Structural scale (basically when you are drawing the insides of something, so dungeons to ship[s to buildings to encounter maps)
and Overall Favourite

And I guess leave out style all together. Few problems: Very unlikely that B+W or monochrome maps would win. Very unlikely that a non fantasy map would win. Very unlike that a non hand drawn style map would win.

I think are less of the actual ones.
Also regardless of a resolution size u cant put on the same dish a worldmap and a dungeonmap even if they could have same resolution image they do not relate.

Plus many post reduced size resolutions couse of limits of uploads.

Also world coninent and regions are quite different works that require different approaches styles and studies.
I dont think they should be merged in the same stuff.

[Falconius]

Or since Fantsy is such a dominant player over here, split that up in best larg scale fantasy map, best small scale fantsy map.

So something like this:
Best Small Scale Fantasy Map
Best Large Scale Fantasy Map
Best Sci-fi/modern Map
Best Structural Map (Again when you are drawing the inside of something like a building, dungeon, ship, or encounter map)
Favorite Map Overall

[Falconius]

@Chickpea's post from 2:15 PM

I wasn't suggesting the names I was using be the definitive names of the categories, rather just using them to illustrate my definitions.

It may be there is no real solution, no easy fix to categorize this sort of stuff, after all it's not something so easily categorized. I don't particularly think that maps should not win multiple categories, but I do feel they shouldn't so easily do it. I do think there is merit in my suggestion that the best overall map not have specific nominations but are from all the maps in the previous categories.

I like your categories. The problems I see are that sci fi or modern style maps simply will not win Large or Local and will also not win any of the "Best" categories. Sci-fi and modern may need their own category in the same way that B/W does.

The oscars split things up by different technical aspects, like best actor best director, maybe we should look to something like that. Like best line art, best iconography, best painting, best labeling, best narrative?

[ChickPea]

Most of the maps are made by hand in the end even the cgi ones... but I think the most important division should be according to area portrayed, like :

World
Continent
Region
City
field
Space
Structural
Creative



then distinguish among medium like :

Black and white
Colored

and traditional vs digital

I'm sorry, but I'm not keen on the idea of World, Continent and Region. We're repeating the problem we have currently. In fact, we're making it worse. If people can't be clear on whether something is a world map, or a regional map, they're going to have an even harder time deciding between regions, continents and worlds. I want to simplify things. I like B&W vs coloured though.

The scale thing, that's a somewhat bad area to get into. I read that the complete opposite.
To me, small scale means a small area, and large scale means a large area.
We need more clarity per category, not less.

As to the whole hand drawn, traditional, etc....
I start some maps traditionally, and "hand drawn" and then move into digital.
How's that going to be categorized?
This is one of the inherent problems with categorizing arty things.

I also feel like we need to focus on the medium, or the kind of map, but not try to do both.
Because we could have any given kind of map done in a variety of mediums.

If we want to include something that doesn't fit a category well, then maybe we just make that a category.
Though even then we are hitting problems, such as Best Hand drawn or traditional.
CP is right about color usually beating black and white.
So, not sure how we would handle BnW, or linework maps, or maybe non color maps... idk.

I know we also don't want to create a ton of categories either.
And also, if we have categories that are exclusive, should the maps that fall in the exclusive category be limited from other categories?
I mean, a traditional regional map can be in a variety of categories, but a similar map done digitally can be in at least one less category.
It basically says we believe traditional to be better or more than the others by giving it a special category.
Or are we saying that it can't compete with digital and needs special treatment?
Just something to think about, from someone who does both.

I think the terminology on small vs large scale is just a matter of wording. If the idea is sound, we can work on the wording to ensure it's clear what people should be nominating.

About the hand-drawing vs computer mapping, I suppose I would judge on the final product. Even if something was started with pen & paper, if it's taken into PS for anything more than labelling, I would judge it a 'computer' map, rather than hand-drawn. I agree in principle with your point though, that it's difficult to categorise some maps, as so many cross styles/genres etc.

About the B&W style, I was thinking probably monochrome would be a better description. Basically, 95% of one colour and perhaps a small amount of leeway for labelling etc. It gets tricky where someone might stick a B&W map on a parchment background. It's only one colour of lineart, but it's not exactly monochrome either. I'd be inclined to include something like this, so long as the lineart was a single colour, but others may disagree.

So let me counter suggest:
Tiny Scale (from world to space to planar etc.)
Small Scale (continental, regional, to country)
Large scale (city-ish)
Structural scale (basically when you are drawing the insides of something, so dungeons to ship[s to buildings to encounter maps)
and Overall Favourite

And I guess leave out style all together. Few problems: Very unlikely that B+W or monochrome maps would win. Very unlikely that a non fantasy map would win. Very unlike that a non hand drawn style map would win.

I think we might still run into issues with the Tiny scale, where people will be nominating regional maps thinking they're world maps. As mentioned above, I would change the wording to avoid confusion over 'scale'.

Or since Fantsy is such a dominant player over here, split that up in best larg scale fantasy map, best small scale fantsy map.

So something like this:
Best Small Scale Fantasy Map
Best Large Scale Fantasy Map
Best Sci-fi/modern Map
Best Structural Map (Again when you are drawing the inside of something like a building, dungeon, ship, or encounter map)
Favorite Map Overall

I'm not super keen on the sci-fi modern map category, to be honest. Do space maps go in sci-fi? Or do they fit somewhere else? Also, we don't get that many modern maps. There are a few of course, which is why this category was bolted on last year, to separate this style out somewhat from the homogenous 'regional map'.

A possible list for consideration (and I'm going to use 'area' rather than scale, so we're clear what I mean)

Large area map (space, world, regional)
Local area map (city, town, village)
Small area/structural map (dungeon, ship, single building)
Best Black & White or Hand-drawn
Best colour
Best/Favourite overall

This drops the 'Most Creative' category, and I have to admit to a soft spot for that category. It acted as a 'catch all' type of thing, where you could nominate anything, especially something slightly out the ordinary. We still have the issue where the same map could win in multiple categories (a regional map would win Large area, Best colour, and Best overall). I don't see any way around that though. People seem to want to vote for the greatest maps in multiple categories, based on a few years' voting patterns.

[Naima]

I'm sorry, but I'm not keen on the idea of World, Continent and Region. We're repeating the problem we have currently. In fact, we're making it worse.

I don' t see how this would make it worst.
The subdivision would be more clear and ordered while too many times we have maps that are regional or continental that end up as world category .

Large area map (space, world, regional)
Local area map (city, town, village)
Small area/structural map (dungeon, ship, single building)
.

This would in my opinion make things worst as eould concentrate too msny maps in a single category of large area ... and the world continent and regionsl maps sre the vastajority of msps made by artists .
Space is a thing apart.

[Falconius]

This discussion seems to have stalled, which was probably inevitable. But I would point out that we've already tried certain sets of categories for a couple of years and we keep returning to the topic, it might be worthwhile to try something different.

I'll include this from my last post since the post order was screwed up and it may have been missed:

The oscars split things up by different technical aspects, like best actor best director, maybe we should look to something like that. Like best line art, best iconography, best painting, best labeling, best narrative?

[ChickPea]

Thanks for your summarising your thoughts again, Falconius. I'm not sure what happened with the weird comment order. I remember trying to preview my comment and the whole screen went white, and I thought I'd lost everything I'd typed. I pressed the back button, and it was all still there, so I just hit post in case it screwed up again. I'm guessing there was some glitch in the post order because of that.

I understand the categories you've listed are just suggestions for discussion, but I'm wondering if some of them are just a bit too specific. I'm honestly not sure if the average user is going to peruse a couple of hundred maps to analyse the labelling. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, and if this is something people would be interested in, please let me know!

We haven't decided anything about the Awards yet. In truth, the CLs haven't even discussed it, and probably won't seriously for another couple of months. We're interested in hearing a range of opinions though, and then we'll decide how to proceed.

[Greason Wolfe]

The problem as I see it is that we are trying to categorize a specific type of creative art, and that’s not an easy thing to do. Simply put, I think there are just too many different ways to interpret some (if not all) of these categories, and it isn’t terribly hard to “stretch” a map in one category into another category. Take, for instance, Francissimo’s Vlahalla Orbital Complex.

It is clearly Sci-Fi work, but what kind of “map” is it? For me, it is a structure/building map, but it could, with only a little bit of stretching, probably qualify as a town/city map in a modern or futuristic setting. Others might not see it as a map at all, but rather just a work of art (which it also is, btw, and a very well done one, imho) similar to those done by artists when new extra-solar planets are discovered. The same could be said for a really large colonization ship like the one in the movie Passengers. It is a ship (structure), but it has a bar, restaurants, gyms, movie theaters, and so on. Again, a little stretching makes it into a town and/or city.

Maybe the easiest way to set this whole thing up (and I’m not saying it would actually be easy to do since I don’t know how easy it would be to implement this sort of thing) would be to go into the Finished Maps forum and give it sub-forums similar to those in the Mapmaking Forum (i.e. a Regional/World sub-forum, a Town/City sub-forum, and so on) and ask members to post their finished maps only once in the most appropriate sub-forum. When nomination and voting time comes around, maps can only be nominated for the sub-forum in which they are posted and, perhaps if we continue to use it, a Best Overall category nomination.

That would break things down as follows;

Regional/World Map
Town/City Map
Building/Structure Map
Dungeon/Subterranean Map
Sci-Fi/Modern Map
VTT/Battlemap
Board Game Map
Best Overall Map

Not saying that we would have to have all of these categories, just tossing them out there for discussion.

Alternatively (and again, I don’t know how hard this would be to implement), maybe we could have special tags in the Finished Maps forum similar to those that we use in the Challenge Forums. Something like ### Regional/World Map ### or ### Town/City Map ###, and ask members to use the most appropriate tag when posting their finished maps. Then maybe a scraper could be used to show which maps can be nominated in which categories. Although that might also require the Finished Maps forum to be broken down into yearly sub-forums with each year being locked (again like the challenges) when the year ends so that the scraper would only pick up maps from the current year. I don’t know.

I like the Atlas Awards, because it is a great way to see some of the incredible works that have been accomplished over the year, especially when I miss seeing them when they are posted.

Just some ideas, thoughts, and ramblings. Feel free to scratch your head and wonder “What the heck was GW thinking?” Hehehe.

[ChickPea]

You make some excellent points, GW, and thanks for taking time to set them down. The issue you highlight with Francissimo's map goes to the core of the problem.

What you've suggested with the scraper tags could probably be implemented from a technical standpoint. Redrobes did his magic with old challenge winners, which you can see here. BUT... that screen of thumbnails only exists because I went through every old challenge winning thread that I could find and manually added the Winner tag (and I continue to add them manually soon(ish) after each challenge). I am NOT keen to manually categorise every 'Finished Map' that's been posted this year.

We probably have two types of user here at the Guild: the ones who check in regularly and are on top of what's going on. If we put out a call, these people would tag their own maps. But then we have people who drop by to post once in a while, and aren't habitual users. These folks would miss out simply because they weren't aware, and half the maps posted in Finished Maps wouldn't be listed anywhere. Then you have new members who've never heard of the Atlas Awards and don't know to tag their work, so someone would need to keep on top of everything posted in Finished Maps on an ongoing basis...

I quite like your categories (and I do appreciate these are just for discussion.) I feel some of the categories nearer the bottom of the list would need to be combined. For example, I doubt if we get more than a handful of board maps every year. Definitely too few to justify its own category. And once you start combining categories... well, we're kinda back to where we are now...!