November 2017 Mapping Challenge: VeterHaven Fortress

[Mark Oliva]

I have questions. But I ain't gonna ask them right now, because there are a lot of blank areas where the answers probably will pop up. Onward and upward!

[ladiestorm]

So I'm still mapping out the village inside the fortress walls. I've decided that this is most likely a nobleman's territory, so there is a small castle with a garrison. After all, there has to be soldiers to work the walls! It also has its own version of 'The King's Farms' which I've started as well.

### Latest WIP ###
Fort Veterhaven.05LRG.JPG


This is one of those points were suggestions, feedback is especially appreciated!!!

[Mark Oliva]

Good morning again!

Time for your Bavarian monkey to climb back onto your back!

You were wondering about my questions (private E-Mail), which I declined to answer, saying I wanted to see where you're going first. Your moat looks good. I like it. Unfortunately, I don't find it credible.

I've seen lots of castles with current and former water moats here in Europe. I also have seen a number of villages with current and former water moats. I have yet to see a water moat without an in- and outflow. I'm sure someone here can point out some real-world water moats without in- and outflows, just to save one who can the trouble of having to say so. However, they are rare for good reason.

The water in a moat usually needs to come from somewhere and it needs to go somewhere. I'm saying all of this because I've understood from other threads that you (like me) do not feel that you have to be bound to real-world-reality in a fantasy world map, but I think you do (like me) want to maintain the credibility of real-world logic in your maps as much as is possible.

The idea of closed water moats has been discussed here before (and by me too). Some who have made such moats respond that their moat is fed by a spring. That's OK, but then the spring is an underground in-flow. The spring provides a steady flow of water, and when it reaches a certain height, the moat will overflow and the overflow eventually will cut an outflow channel, in other words, a creek.

Others have said their moats are filled with rain water. There are ponds that fill with rain water and then go dry. But a moat that depends only upon rain water leads to some serious problems, the kind that were serious enough to keep most moat builders from going this route. Rain water moats are stagnant. Unlike flowing moats, closed moats cannot breed fish, a food source lost. In dry periods, the water in closed moats made breeding grounds for large numbers of mosquitoes, gnats and horseflies, which in turn spread disease.

This knowledge was gained not from makers of closed water moats but rather from those who built dry moats. Where there were no conditions favorable to an in- and outflow, one tended instead to make a very wide moat (like yours) with steep walls and filled with irregularly shaped and sized rocks and other obstacles.

However, the early builders of dry moats had the problems that a closed water moat would cause. After a period of heavy rain, the dry moats were filled with stagnant water which also bred large numbers of mosquitoes, gnats and horseflies, which in turn spread diseases. They quickly learned to resolve this problem by building underground outflow tunnels (culverts in a medieval style) that drained the dry moat and channeled the water out beyond the town or castle.

Does this matter in your map? Not necessarily. It doesn't have to. It depends only on how real and logical you want your map to be. When I map locations like yours, I can't get comfortable with illogical things like water moats without in- or outlets. But that's my problem. It doesn't have to be yours!

Monkey down again.

Nix für Ungut!

[Tenia]

Even if it is unlikely, I like (sic) the water filled moat, the map would be paler without it. If you don't mind, there's a "technical" thing that's been bothering me a little bit : there should perhaps be a structure between the gate towers, to house the harrow lifting mechanism and allow defenders to settle in to throw all sorts of things at the attackers : pitch, burning sand, rocks, feces, cows... not cows.
Good job and I like your neat style

[Mouse]

Looking good, Storm

Love the moat!

[ladiestorm]

Well, I was planning on keeping this a secret, until it was actually part of my map, because I had an idea of the type of defenses I wanted from the moment I read the challenge parameters. But the moat you are looking at, doesn't have an outflow for a specific reason. I have a specific plan for my moat, I was just waiting to get most of the rest of the map completed before I worked on it.

But since I have others that seem a little concerned about my walls, and their possible size, which ties into my defense plan, I'm going to go ahead and reveal what that defense is. You see, this is supposed to be a fortress that can survive against zombies (or any other matter of undead). And the one defense that seems to work well against any manner of undead is... well... FIRE.

My moat isn't made of water... or not mostly water. It also contains oil, sludge, sewage, anything that will BURN, wet or dry. It's either poured over the side, or it's fed through its in-flow, which is that large stream that flows through a culvert in the wall. I just couldn't show the culvert! But if you look, you will see that it does, indeed, flow under the wall, and down the side of the rocky foundation, on the front right side. it is a spring that feeds up into a 'pond' that then flows toward and under the wall. It's also why my walls are so tall. It's not only protection from the creatures that might attack, it's protection from the fire defense.

Tenia, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by 'lifting' mechanism. But if I understand your way of thinking, you are trying to figure out how the soldiers get up on the high wall. There are doors into the base of each tower (no way to show them in this top down view), and in each tower is a stairwell, that leads to a trapdoor set in the floor of the parapets. The soldiers (defenders) reach the walls that way. I don't know if I have a dark ages version of the lift, or elevator, but if I do, Mark will certainly let me know! If I have one, I do plan to include it, because yes, being able to throw burning oil (or other things!) over the side is definitely part of this village's defense!

[Tenia]

My bad, I was actually thinking about a portcullis, like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portcullis, if you're thinking of placing one of course... Good already, go on

[Mark Oliva]

Monkey mode back on.

My moat isn't made of water... or not mostly water. It also contains oil, sludge, sewage, anything that will BURN, wet or dry.

OK. But then the sunny sky blue color of the moat's liquid content really is rather questionable, isn't it.

(Elevator shaft question handled in private E-Mail).

Monkey mode off again.

Nix für Ungut!

Servus,

[ladiestorm]

LOL... *sits on the monkey* I did say I wasn't finished with the moat, right? The 'pretty' blue you see here, I chose because of the 'shiny' blue and green tones to it. I plan on adding a lot more! I just have to finish with the rest of the map first . After all, I still have to add the stuff that burns!

*gets up off the monkey*

I promise I will do my best to tie everything together, by the time this map is complete!

[ladiestorm]

And the work on this map continues.

I took the suggestion from someone on the PF forums, and changed the fill of my outer wall to better match the floor, making it look like one cohesive whole. I admit, I like this better. I've also continued adding to my farm, or farms, as there is actually more than one. At this point, I'm a little more over half way done, and I have 6 days more to complete it. Or 5 1/2, since Diamond, I believe is in Europe somewhere, and as such is quite a few hours ahead of me. So it's nose to the grindstone, so to speak!

Oh, and Tenia - yes, I am already planning a portcullis between the gate... and a draw bridge too!

### Latest WIP ###

Fort Veterhaven.06LRG.JPG