### february 2016 challenge voting ###

[Carnifex]

What I wondered and still wonder is what are the criteria used for the vote because originality and creativity clearly isn't it.

here are the criteria from the rules:
"Judging Criteria - Entries will be judged based on the following criteria in no specific order: originality, artistic merit, adherence to challenge guidelines, technical excellence."
Nothing strange and every voter will probably (hopefully) vote with their heart. Many voters post how they thought when they voted - which is good but not required.

[Bogie]

And while the Challenge Rules do list those Judging Criteria, it is just up to each person voting to decide on what they like and want to vote for, there is no harsh adherence to the criteria, and no one is forced to vote in any particular way, nor are they judged for how they chose to vote.
To answer a part of your question concerning why a few maps are getting almost no votes, the main reason is they are not finished. The challenges are supposed to simulate you being hired to produce a map, "A commission", within a specific deadline.

Originality appears to be very important to you, so I assume your votes will tend to favor those maps that are more original. That is perfectly OK for you and anyone else who shares your opinion, but you can't expect everyone to feel the same way. Especially in the case of this challenge where the stated specifics are to map a location in a novel. "Your mission this month is to map a locale from ANY novel, short story, novella, etc etc. Sci Fi, Fantasy, Western, Horror, Mystery, whatever genre you want, whatever type of map you want." Some people chose to redo the map that is in the book and others chose to map a locale that had not been previously mapped, and both are equally valid, making originality a less important criteria this time. So even though Carnifex has copied the Middle Earth map that we have all seen many times, his version of it is beautifully done and is getting a lot of votes.

Even though these challenges do have a "contest" aspect to them and it is nice to win and be recognized for that, the main reason the challenges were created is to have fun doing something we love, to push ourselves to improve, and to help each other doing that.

[Chick]

And while the Challenge Rules do list those Judging Criteria, it is just up to each person voting to decide on what they like and want to vote for, there is no harsh adherence to the criteria, and no one is forced to vote in any particular way, nor are they judged for how they chose to vote.....
Even though these challenges do have a "contest" aspect to them and it is nice to win and be recognized for that, the main reason the challenges were created is to have fun doing something we love, to push ourselves to improve, and to help each other doing that.

And maybe that is a lot of the problem. Since the challenges have voting and an award for winning, they are clearly a contest. And a contest should have clear criteria for winning.

Maybe we should either eliminate the voting and awards entirely and say that the challenges are just to " have fun doing something we love, to push ourselves to improve, and to help each other doing that", OR we should keep the contest aspect and make some clear criteria for selecting the winner.

[Jaxilon]

Ok, since I have a few minutes and when I do I like to mention how my votes were cast:

I looked at how many entries there were and I figured I would just pick 2 maps. We used to have a formula for how many votes you should cast but it was easier to just let everyone vote for whatever they wanted so today, I said to myself, "2".

Middle Earth by Carnifex - Gets my vote because I really like the near satellite detail he shows. The one area that I both hate and love is the rivers. That beveled type look....I don't know what to do about it because I like how it adds to the defined look of the land but for some reason it also bugs me that it's a bevel. Meh, I haven't figured out how to do it better myself so there it is. Gorgeous map.

Blood Song by ravells - Got my other vote because I'm so impressed by all the verbiage. I don't know if I have the patience to put that many names on a map. It's a different style than what is typically my favorite but I haven't see one of these in a while so I'm voting for it. It's a great example and looks very good.

The Elder Isles (Lyonesse trilogy) by Max - This is cool, it looks like it belongs in the front pages of a book. I love the extras on the margins (sword & helmet) and there are clearly a lot of pencil strokes to make this. I don't see anything wrong with this and wish I had one like it in my portfolio. Good job.

Beyond Redemption by Diamond - This looks so western to me. It's a bit dark around the edges but based on the title I see why. The borders are so well done they give me the willies (if that's what you were after you win) but they also sort of freaked me out as in I wouldn't want it on my wall. Good job.

The Halls of Undermountain by Tonnichiwa - This is absolutely beautiful and as I looked at it, it rang bells that I had seen it before. Djekspek is a famous member here. He created the CC tileset and Tonnichiwa did a perfect job of using it. Not a knock on what you created but unless the goal is to use them I don't usually vote for stuff not generated by the entrant. Still, this is a really nice map and if I wasn't around when Dj made these I would probably have voted for it.

Hogwarts by Chick - I really love the left side of the map. The side on view on the right is ok but might have been better without the smokey smudges used to add depth? It seems like they didn't quite pull off adding depth to the buildings and they weren't quite right for shadows. Still, I do like the Hogsmeade town part as it aided the eye to see that as separate from the Hogwart's area which I thought was a nice touch.

Sword of Shannara by Troedel - I love the extras put on this, that hand drawn cartouche is very cool. The map has a certain feel to it that depending on the story it was for might mean this map would win. By that I mean, if I wanted a map for a young adult fantasy story I think this one would be it. And now that I put it in words I realize you did exactly that. I venture to say if I had spent more time thinking about it this would have been near my top pick. It clearly has a hand drawn look and I do love that. I think maybe if the mountain color had a bit more gradual gradient from mountain to plains it might improve it. Perhaps with some hills between the mountains and the plains? It does kind of go from mountains to BANG plains. Still, this really is a great entry and sorry I didn't think more about the connection to the story. I often overlook that because when I don't know the story the map is made for I don't want to dink someone for that.

The Goblin Emperor by Xpian - This is looking amazing..just not finished from what I can tell.

Silo 18 by Larb - unfinished. I like the silhouette of the city in the background and I think this has potential.

Azanulbizar by Deadshade - This is trippy. It goes from kind of realistic to the opposite. Nice job on the mountains. I'm not sure what to think about this one. It's like a child's dream or something. Was there more you were planning to do with this? It's cool though even if not.

Numenor by Waldronate - starfish!

Dang, these things take a long time to fill out and I'm exhausted. As with any of these I do, I'm no professional critique and all I'm trying to do is share the convoluted ways I came to my decisions, pass along what I loved and didn't quite love about each piece in the hopes it will help you all improve. Art is always subjective so take of it what you will. I've tried to be honest about what I'm getting from these and I never mean to offend anyone because life is to short for that kind of strife.

Keep on mapping and have fun doing it!

[Tonnichiwa]

My question to you about only voting for stuff that is only generated by the entrant is, if it isn't obvious, then how do you know?. I mean, in all honesty there is very little difference in someone drawing out the edges of a map in photoshop, then using brushes for the mountains, trees, buildings, rocks, etc. And a person doing the same in cc3 or cc3+. If a person used photoshop and used brushes and you liked the map, then another person used cc3/ cc3+ and you liked the map, would your vote automatically go to the person who used photoshop? Even though both maps were created the same way?

It's pretty obvious that a person using cc3 or cc3+ is going to pretty much always be using brushes or stamps, but it isn't always obvious with photoshop. So I'm curious how you would vote on this. Please don't get me wrong, this is simple curiosity, not anger at your method of voting.

[ravells]

Gudern said:

As this refers to my earlier post, I would like to set it straight.
There is no "problem" and there is nothing to be "nipped in the bud" . There are just questions.

The problem with your questions (civilly and politely asked) was that they turned out to be flamebait as we saw.

What I wondered and still wonder is what are the criteria used for the vote

We leave individual voters to decide about how they weight their choices, you would have to ask them why they made the choices they did. For me it's things like technical execution, composition, use of line, texture and colour, quality of drawings, atmosphere, quality of finish, amusement, a wow factor, originality etc. I don't have a big list of criteria to which I give individual scores. I vote on a general impression which I believe takes into account these components.

because originality and creativity clearly isn't it.

Are you seriously making this accusation about all the people who have voted for all the maps that have won the challenge each month since circa 2007?

Judging from the PMs I got, I am not alone wondering about it - especially in the context of a contest where probably every participant would like to know by what criteria he will be judged in order to avoid doing work that will be unanimously and predictably hated by the voters because the style doesn't fit with the their criteria

Well that's easy isn't it? You should just look at what people have voted for in previous challenges before to see what the prevailing 'unspoken criteria weighting ' is (if - as clearly you do - you believe that such a thing exists) . It's all there in the archives if anybody want to take a look. That said, if the *only* reason that people enter challenges is to get a winning entry by 'gaming the game' in trying to work out what the 'unspoken criteria weighting' is, then I find that rather sad. The challenges are meant to be much more than that and I fear that they (and you) have rather missed that rather important point if that is all you perceive the challenges to be about.

What makes you think that some entries are 'unanimously and predictably hated'? Not considered as vote-worthy as the other entries perhaps but 'hated'? Can you point me to anyone who has ever said that they 'hated' a contest entry? The closest I've seen people come to this (and even then the word 'hate' wasn't used) is in the comments you and Chick made in the last lite challenge about Chickpea's entry which observed that her map was a 'copy and paste' and 'tracings' of photographs. Chickpea had mapped a real world location and drawn (maybe traced - I don't know) from real world map data and photos. The style of Chickpea's map looked nothing like the examples that were posted in support of the allegation beyond being a representation of the same location, so I wouldn't call it a 'copy and paste'. I don't believe you have ever entered a contest, but I know that Chick has based previous maps on existing maps (and indeed has done so in this contest) - so I was surprised to read her views - but she is entitled to choose how she wants to vote like the rest of us.

In either case there is no problem with anybody, me included, who would point out that Map X is an original and creative concept that has no or little equivalent here or on the web while Map Y is a variation or a copy of something that exists in hundreds of exemplars on the web

Understand that many, many maps on this site are based on books or RPGs which already have maps which have been used as a base. Additionally, you could say that virtually every map of every real place in the world is, to an extent a copy of a previous map of the same location or derived from DEM sattelite data. Where I (and I suspect most others here) see the line of plagiarism being crossed is when taken as a whole the map in question (or large elements of it) is confusingly similar to a pre-existing map so that if put side by side, it would be almost impossible to tell them apart.

So yes, by all means say that you think a map is too derivative to vote for, but be careful about accusing people of plagiarism (I know you haven't but you've come close) because that's potentially defamatory, not to mention churlish.

In any case I think that there would certainly be added value if the regular voters (the results of a contest are decided by approximately the same group of regular voters) published what are their criteria for voting because they obviously exist and are very focused.
Or it can stay as is .

Added value, certainly, but how would you suggest your proposal is implemented? Make it a condition that in order to vote (if you are a regular voter - decided how?) you write a full explanation as to why you voted for which map? Bit cumbersome and dictatorial, isn't it? Do you think it might put people off from voting at all if it was mandatory that they had to take the time to write explanations? I do, so I think it will stay as it is.

I am all for promoting mutual help but what is missing is an explanation of what has been so hopelessly bungled in the maps who got only a couple of votes despite all the help .

Easy. The mapmaker just has to ask the question: 'why do you think my map didn't do so well in the contest'. Just ask. They can even ask during the process of making the map 'what can I do to make this map better?' Or even (if they were so inclined) 'does this map meet the 'unspoken criteria weighting' that will inevitably be applied when the votes come in. What I don't see is why people should be forced to tell contestants what their chances of winning the contest are during the mapping process which is what it seems you are advocating.

For instance in this challenge I absolutely don't see what is wrong with some maps getting almost no votes compared to some other maps that are almost unanimously voted for.

If you don't see it, you are quite welcome to ask other people why they voted for the maps they did and they, of course, are equally entitled to answer (or not).

I hope this answers your questions.

[Jaxilon]

My question to you about only voting for stuff that is only generated by the entrant is, if it isn't obvious, then how do you know?. I mean, in all honesty there is very little difference in someone drawing out the edges of a map in photoshop, then using brushes for the mountains, trees, buildings, rocks, etc. And a person doing the same in cc3 or cc3+. If a person used photoshop and used brushes and you liked the map, then another person used cc3/ cc3+ and you liked the map, would your vote automatically go to the person who used photoshop? Even though both maps were created the same way?

It's pretty obvious that a person using cc3 or cc3+ is going to pretty much always be using brushes or stamps, but it isn't always obvious with photoshop. So I'm curious how you would vote on this. Please don't get me wrong, this is simple curiosity, not anger at your method of voting.

No offense taken. I don't always know if a person has done the drawing themselves or not. Sometimes I have an idea based on other things I have seen them do or like in this case it forces me to go look up a certain artist to see. I have always loved Dj's work so it's not surprising I recognized it. It's really a pretty small world when it comes to the map makers in the world. I have seen stuff by Torstan that was hijacked by someone else and even though the name was missing I knew who's work it was. That was years ago and he had to go talk to the website owners to pull it. Pretty much most of the longer time map makers have a style you get to recognize and you know before you check the sig who's it is.

I'm sure I've voted for plenty of maps where artwork included in the map was stock or copied or some variant of same. All I'm saying is that I am most likely to vote for maps where the artist literally drew everything on it. Skillful use of a brush set can also be so well done that it's masterful (as I feel was yours) but, simply because 99% of everything I do takes forever because I'm drawing and painting every piece of it, I just tend to give more weight to that.

If I had 100 points to spend then I would certainly drop points on every piece just because I really do appreciate all the effort. Unfortunately, since I've only got a couple votes I have to do something to choose between the various entries. For me that's just one of the things.

I know there have been some incredible maps done with mountain brushes by, if I remember right, stormcrow or close to that. It's a fantastic brush set but if I have to vote on one made using those or one where the person drew every mountain or even made their own set of brushes I'll almost always go with the second one.

And don't get me wrong either, I love your entry and am happy to see more maps using that set.

[LordEntrails]

Since it was asked, I only vote for one map. I figure in the end their is only one winner so I limit myself to one (ravells this time). I guess some month I might pick two if I couldn't decide. I almost picked two this month.

I've made comments in all the development threads about what I liked and didn't, for each one. If anyone has questions, let me know.

Note, I'm am not an artist, and barely an amateur cartographer. I'm an engineer and gamer. And have loved maps since I was a kid. I'm here to learn more so that I can make better maps for my own gaming needs.

[Tonnichiwa]

Thank you Jaxilon for the honest answer. Very cool. I appreciate you addressing this.

Cheers

[Jaxilon]

Honestly, my biggest regret is being busy and not having enough time to be here these days and only offering these comments at the end of the challenge, once it's over. It would be better if I could get into everyone's WIP thread and point out things as it was developing. That's even better than an explanation after the fact. Hopefully others are able to find the time.

I know I learned a lot from people posting what they liked and didn't like in my maps. It was nice to get those during the WIP so I could address them if I wanted but sometimes it just didn't work out. Sometimes it stung a little too so I try to say things in a kind way because there's no reason to be mean, after all, everyone here loves maps and we want to keep on seeing more and better maps. So it behooves us all to keep helping one another do that. In the long run it makes us all happier because we get to look at better and more gorgeous maps.