Working on a city map

[Gamerprinter]

Here's a link to a hand-drawn city map I created for Paizo Publishing, a couple years ago, that depicts a city of 180,000. Just to give you an idea of what such a large urban sprawl might look like. At your existing walls and described scale, I don't see how 25,000 people are going to fit that space. Consider that the average sized building in my linked map has an estimated 50 people in each, as extended families and servants in each one.

[xalendi]

Holy crap that's a huge city.

Hmm...I think I need to rethink things.

[Wingshaw]

I hate to be so openly critical of someone else's work, but I do not think GamerPrinters' map is a good example of fantasy city mapping (although it is certainly an impressive picture). Nor do I entirely agree with his step-by-step guide (sorry GamerPrinter; it's not personal).

The reason I do not think Kasai is a good model is that it does not seem to me to be realistic to the forms or patterns of any historic cities that I know of. Admittedly, it looks to be east Asian influenced, and I am less knowledgeable about cities in that region. The area that I know best is medieval and post-medieval Europe, and in Europe you would not have free-standing buildings, but rather houses that are tightly set up next to each other; nor would there be 50 people in a single structure, even a noble's house probably wouldn't have that many people living under the same roof. Additionally, I do not think the street layout is historically realistic.

A lot of people, in working on city maps, make some huge mistakes, because they are not sufficiently familiar with pre-industrial urban forms. Before the Industrial Revolution, and before post-WW2 urban development, cities were amazingly dense. That city that GamerPrinter linked, if done to the density of, say, Rome, Nuremberg, Paris or London, would house millions of people.

My advice to you is to keep going as you were before. I think the scale and urban form you had was just right. I agree with GamerPrinter about defining geography ahead of anything else, and not rushing to do the walls first. The steps I would advise are:
--geography;
--principal roads (including ones connecting to sites off-map, and linking key locations (the market, the port, the castle, the main temple);
--medium roads (these are the ones that people walk down regularly to get, say, from their homes to the market/farms/workplace;
--small roads (these are the ones that take people from the medium roads right to their front door--for all the people who do not live on a main or medium road directly);
--indicate where the wall will go;
--don't forget suburbs outside the walls.

It would be nice to see the layout you have planned, because it would be horrible if obvious problems appear after you've drawn them so well.

By the way, the info I have provided above is based on my research into medieval urban form over the past decade, my two degrees (one in archaeology and the other in urban planning), and my Honours thesis about 16th century London. I know that this is basically the same as saying "I'm an expert, so trust me," but I hope it comes across as helpful rather than arrogant.

THW

[xalendi]

I'm at work at the moment, or I'd post the rough I'm working from. I'll certainly do it after I get up today, though. (I work nights, see). I am grateful for the feedback everyone is leaving.

[Chick]

By the way, the info I have provided above is based on my research into medieval urban form over the past decade, my two degrees (one in archaeology and the other in urban planning), and my Honours thesis about 16th century London. I know that this is basically the same as saying "I'm an expert, so trust me," but I hope it comes across as helpful rather than arrogant.

THW

There is a huge difference between saying "I'm an expert, so trust me," and saying "I'm an expert, here are my credentials, and here is why I know what I am talking about, so trust me." I think you qualify for the latter.

[Gamerprinter]

Of course the Kasai map was for an Asian city, that was the publisher's requirement for the commission. Additionally this map was for a fantasy based city, so it doesn't necessarily exactly follow Earth based historical examples. The unrealistic street plan was a compromise with the publisher. I'd prefer to continue to use a grid style street layout as in typical cities of the Far East, but the publisher wanted meandering streets, so streets adjacent the canals are parallel, the rest meander. Also part of the city on both sides of the nearest canal to the river is part of the original city with a street plan placed before the canals were cut and why many of the streets seem very incongruent with the canals - that is the reason. So there's was a necessity in city planning to accomodate the wishes of the publishers.

The number of people per building was dictated by the publisher, also, and not based on my own numbers which are closer to 15 per building (or I just average it 20 - extended family, plus shop assistants/apprentices - just to make the math easier).

Still the map does help depict what a large city would require in number of buildings, if not exact placement of buildings and streets.

That said, I stand by my step-by-step list to city building, as I apply that to any city design, which most are designed to fit a European style rather than an Asian one.

[Azélor]

Chinese cities tended to be different from European cities form my understanding, at least when it comes to the capitals. During the Tang, the cities took the shape of squares with roads at right angles. The Tang had several capitals and subsequent capitals all imitated Chang'an layout and other influential cities probably tried to emulate the capital as well. The thing is that Chinese had the means to build a capital of 200 000 people from the ground up. Even for them, it required a lot of resources but was doable. It also require centralization and enough authority to properly regulate the city (urbanism). They controlled the inner city very well but I'm not sure about the outer city, urbanism was more chaotic. As a capital city, it contained an absurdly high proportion of temple and governmental buildings.

These examples show the main streets of medieval Chang'an (present day Xi'an)
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...d=0CB8QMygEMAQ
http://www.sde.nus.edu.sg/changan/!Yongning02a.jpg
I'm skeptical about the last one: population density look too low.

[xalendi]

That last one looks like someone's playing simcity and hasn't provided enough jobs near the residential areas.

[Wingshaw]

Additionally this map was for a fantasy based city, so it doesn't necessarily exactly follow Earth based historical examples.

You're right, fantasy cities do not have to follow the same rules. However, some things do not change. For example, land within walls is usually tightly limited, and therefore economic principles of supply and demand take effect. As more land is occupied, less is available, and the value goes up. This, in turn, leads people to construct buildings that waste as little space as possible. This is why old cities were so crowded, and that crowdedness is what produced the particular urban form that is visible in medieval European settlements. It also explains why modern cities are comparatively free of that constraint and so can be a lot less densely built. Of course, a world-builder can invent something that changes the above fact. For example, if the medieval city was founded by, say, a communist ruler, land may not be a traded commodity, and so its scarcity and market value ceases to matter.

The unrealistic street plan was a compromise with the publisher. I'd prefer to continue to use a grid style street layout as in typical cities of the Far East, but the publisher wanted meandering streets, so streets adjacent the canals are parallel, the rest meander...So there's was a necessity in city planning to accomodate the wishes of the publishers.

The number of people per building was dictated by the publisher, also, and not based on my own numbers which are closer to 15 per building (or I just average it 20 - extended family, plus shop assistants/apprentices - just to make the math easier).

Although I am new to doing commissioned works, I understand the need to make compromises based on a client's wishes.

I think the number of occupants per building that you cite is probably much more accurate; of course, it varies based on class and culture, but as a general rule 15-20 people is probably reasonable.

That said, I stand by my step-by-step list to city building, as I apply that to any city design, which most are designed to fit a European style rather than an Asian one.

I reread your step-by-step list, and perhaps I misunderstood the first time. It is a good list, which I presume you wrote specifically for Xalendi's map. Some of the instructions (such as placing the main roads, or a castle etc) cannot be generalised to all city maps (for example if there is no castle or river). I had thought that you meant this as a general rule, but now see that you did not. I presume, instead, that you intend it as a template that can be adjusted on a case-by-case basis, in which case I agree with your method. I apologise for the confusion.

I would add only one thing, however, and that is the last point about walls. You are, of course, right that walls do not come first in urban development. However, they do not necessarily come last, either. At the risk of sounding too vague, they come when they are needed: a city that is never threatened has no need for walls; a small village that is threatened may not be able to afford to build walls. Walls also serve more purposes than just defence: they can be a status symbol for a settlement; tollgates can be a way of raising revenue; they can help to govern the people, by deciding who may enter and who may leave. Furthermore, cities continue growing even when the walls are built: people who cannot afford the inflated land prices inside the walls will settle outside; traders who don't want to pay the toll to enter town will sell their goods at the town gates (many medieval cities had markets at their gates, shown even today by a widening of the road).

In any case, the matter may be a moot point: Xalendi has said that these walls are monumental in scale, so presumably there is some further backstory to the whole matter that may explain the reason they have been built when and where they are.

Chinese cities tended to be different from European cities form my understanding, at least when it comes to the capitals. During the Tang, the cities took the shape of squares with roads at right angles. The Tang had several capitals and subsequent capitals all imitated Chang'an layout and other influential cities probably tried to emulate the capital as well. The thing is that Chinese had the means to build a capital of 200 000 people from the ground up. Even for them, it required a lot of resources but was doable. It also require centralization and enough authority to properly regulate the city (urbanism). They controlled the inner city very well but I'm not sure about the outer city, urbanism was more chaotic. As a capital city, it contained an absurdly high proportion of temple and governmental buildings.

I also remember learning that Chinese cities often adopted that T-shaped layout, with a grid-base superimposed on the main part of the city. I think that in traditional architecture, also, Chinese and Japanese tended towards dwellings situated within walled compounds, like in the images you shared (and in parts of Gamerprinter's map). I do not know how densely built those dwellings were, though, or, as you say, what patterns of development occurred in the outer parts of the city.

You raise a very important point, I think: the resources to construct a city from the ground-up was a rarity in medieval Europe, but something feasible for the Chinese. I think your even more important point, though, is that the Chinese had a government sufficiently centralised and well-organised to enforce those designs over time.

THW

[J.Edward]

Ironically, all of the points made lead back to a certain thing. What is the 'story' of the city.
This will tell you what you need to know about how and why it came to be the way it is.
The most outlandish stories, and hence maps, can still be true for that particular city.
Perhaps not as a general rule for all cities, but each map, like each city, is unique.