Bogie? Is DJ fully dead now?

[Bogie]

The easiest way to be able to run Dundjinni under Windows 8 (or later) is to download Virtual Box from Oracle. Install Virtual Box and then go buy a cheap copy of Windows 98se or Windows XP. Install that into (or onto) Virtual Box. Then install the software on to (or in to) the Virtual Disc where the OS was installed. This is the easiest way to be able to run 98/XP as well as any software for the earlier OSs. This is how I run Raydream Studios which requires 98se and dies under XP.

Sounds easy, it would be nice to know if it worked. If you do try this then get Win XP it is what works the best with DJ.

[markem]

It really does work. I've used Virtual Box for even Windows XP under Windows XP. I've also used it with Windows 7. I've used Virtual Box under Windows 8 to install and run old 98se and XP programs. Imagine running MS Office 98 on a tablet! :-)

[markem]

My only problem with DundJinni is that someone said you can only use one size map. I don't own DJ but I know that CC3 and Visio both allow you to use many different sizes for the maps. If they can get the program to be open source that is one of the things I would work on trying to change. It would seem to me to be a simple fix. Just keep how large the area is and divide it up in to length and width. But that's just me and my forty some odd years of working as a programmer. :-)

[Mark Oliva]

My only problem with DundJinni is that someone said you can only use one size map.

One size map? What does that mean to you? In terms of Dundjinni (which I have but seldom use), I can't come up with anything particular that this would mean.

[Bogie]

Dundjinni uses a workspace that is 40" x 32" at 200 DPI. You can make smaller maps on that space and then just crop the map with any graphics editor. Or you can map at 200 dpi and then use a graphics editor to change it to 80" x 64" at 100 dpi. It is not unlimited like Photoshop, but that is a pretty wide range of sizes.

The reason for the 40 x 32 limit is that most computers from the time when DJ was created couldn't handle much larger without slowing down to a crawl.

Some examples of maps I have created with DJ:

LizardKing-Waycombe-Inn-interior_bg.jpgDungeon Tiles -+102_bg.jpgAlley Oops Interior-1-Med_bg.jpg

[markem]

Mark Oliva: See what Bogie posted.

Bogie: That is not bad. I was afraid it was something like 8.5 x 11 and you had to zoom in to do anything. 40 x 32 is not bad. 200dpi isn't too bad either. Alternatively, if you made something small maybe you could zoom in to it and do a screen snapshot. I know this would make it less than 100 dpi but on a large screen (like 1920x1280) you can zoom in pretty close and get a decent image on screen (and thus on the printer also). Programmatically I am sure this would not take all that long to change to allowing for larger or even smaller areas. I am hoping the people trying to get it to be open source can do so. I'd like to see the code. Since the program was created when Windows 98se was still around I am sure that C++ was not used (and instead either C or maybe Visual Basic). If VB was used then that means that maybe someone could create a script editor for DJ that would allow people to write little scripts that do such things as create a river or variations in walls so maybe a wall that had degraded (like an old castle).

[Bogie]

I don't know much about programing, but I know v1.0.4 was written for XP in 2003, and v1.0.7 was rewritten to run under Vista using newer versions of JAVA.
The main graphics engine uses JAVA. DJ seems to run better under some versions of JAVA than others. I think I use Java 7.

Before Vista came out, the owner had invested a lot of money into developing DundJinni 2. It was supposed to have fixed many of the issues such as user selected map size, more control over the wall shadows, the ability to import graphic images on the fly, smoother blending of the edge between different floor textures and faster rendering/exporting of finished maps. We were all very excited to get these improvements.

Then Vista came out and DJ ran poorly on it. Instead of being able to proceed with DJ2 she had to spend all available resources to have V1.0.7 programmed and DJ 2 was shelved permanently. Things went downhill from there. The owner, Mindy, had to deal with a serious illness and death
of a parent, and (I believe) financial problems. There were problems with the web host, the site went down for 3 months, and we suddenly came under a massive porn / spam attack that forced us to make registering a lot more difficult. The end result was that many regulars gave up and only a few new members joined.

Recently a few of the long lost members have made a return and that has been nice.

[Mark Oliva]

(Dundjinni was) written to run under Vista using newer versions of JAVA.
The main graphics engine uses JAVA. DJ seems to run better under some versions of JAVA than others. I think I use Java 7.

This is one of Dundjinni's two big problems when we look at it in the realm of modern graphical and cartographic programs. Once a Dundjinni drawing gets large and with a lot of content - such as a map of a village - it runs through the Java interpreter with about the same flow rate as molasses in the Arctic.

The second problem is that Dundjinni uses only a single symbol (object) scale. That causes the same problem as the Java interpreter when working with large maps. Dundjinni in all versions is 32-bit software, so a boost in system resources helps little, because 32-bit software can't make a lot of use of the boosted resources.

Dundjinni is a great tool for making dungeon elements, floor plans, battlemaps, etc. If you look at most of the good stuff that Bogie posts, you'll find that it falls into these categories, and most if not all were made with Dundjinni.

However, if you try to make maps of cities, large villages or overland areas with strong object (symbol) implementation, you begin to get into trouble to the point where the megabit sizes of the maps bring Dundjinni to die with memory crashes. Adding more memory to your computer is no help, because 32-Bit software has a 4 MB memory area available, and a program cannot access all of that. Anything over 4 MB doesn't exist, as far as Dundjinni is concerned.

This isn't much of a problem with other popular 32-Bit cartographic programs such as Camapign Cartographer 3 and 3+ or Fractal Mapper 8. CC3 and CC3+ store each symbol in four different resolutions, and they always automatically pick the version that costs the least resources while still being 100% suitable graphically for the map. FM8 uses objects (symbols) in different resolutions for different kinds of maps rather than Dundjinni's system of having a single resolution for all maps.

[markem]

Mark Oliva : I think you meant 4GB and not 4MB. 4MB really would be a problem. :-)

Java is really not a good language to write graphic intensive programs unless you are willing to invest the time and effort to use pointers and trees to hold everything in memory. Arrays quickly become unwieldy and slow. I used to work at the IGOAL lab at the Johnson Space Center. (IGOAL = Integrated Graphics Operations and Analysis Lab) We did films for NASA, Congress, other parts of the government, and also for Universities. (Carnegie Mellon and the underground robot miner comes to mind.) Java was considered by the IGOAL but we used C and then C++ when it came out instead. I have seen graphics programs written in Java that use pointers and trees to handle graphics and they are really nice programs. But to achieve the speeds that you want to have so things run smoothly - you need C/C++ or......something that runs and uses the standard C/C++ libraries.

For me - that "something" is Freebasic. Freebasic will run on many different OSs (but you have to compile ON that OS) has pointers, trees, and uses the standard C library. It is also very fast once compiled as well as creating fairly small executables. I think that if DJ is written in Java that it would benefit greatly by converting it to C/C++ or maybe Freebasic. Freebasic also allows for the inclusion of other libraries like GD. So graphical interfaces or graphic libraries can be included to also help make DJ run faster. Some of the other things about Freebasic is the fact that it can handle both 2D as well as 3D graphics and both are built into Freebasic.

Anyway, mainly wanted to respond and say 4GB. :-)

[Mark Oliva]

Mark Oliva : I think you meant 4GB and not 4MB. 4MB really would be a problem. :-)

I think so too.

I think that if DJ is written in Java that it would benefit greatly by converting it to C/C++ or maybe Freebasic.

Absolutely. If the vanished owner of DJ ever unvanishes, it might be that someone could convince her to make her abandoned software open source material. It might even be then that someone would do what you're suggesting and also modernize DJ, which was a much-used and much-loved program for awhile, until it slowly turned old and grey.

However, the owner remains vanished, so ...