How to choose a tool for mapping?

[Mark Oliva]

Greetings!

Sorry I didn't see your posting earlier.

There are a couple of crucial points that you've defined too vaguely for me. You write

back in the day, when I've played a lot,

and

After over a decade without regular playing and DMing,

but you don't make quite clear what your goal is. Why do you want to make maps? The things I quoted suggest that you might want to make maps to use in RPG gaming, but that's not necessarily the case. I would give you varying answers to your base question, depending upon the purpose of your maps.

If you plan to run one or more RPG campaigns as game master, then you will need to make the best maps possible in the least time possible so that the map(s) is/are on the table at your next gaming session.

If ... like the three members of our project group ... you're publishing and all members of the group have equal responsibilities for text and cartography, you also need to complete maps quickly. In that case, all three of us use the same software programs and we map according to a binding style book to map the maps look as though the all come from the same source.

Some guild members make maps on commission for RPGs without text responsibilities. They have various deadlines to meet. Some have to produce a map in a week's time. Others have three of six months or maybe even a year. Those with short deadlines may need different software than those with long deadlines.

There also are lot of guild members who aren't involved in RPGs and who make maps simply for the joy of making maps. They post their work here and elsewhere and that's its end line. Such cartographers are fortunate in a sense, because the only deadlines with which they have to be concerned are those that they set for themselves.

If I were a cartographer with long deadlines or one who simply was making maps for the joy of doing it, I would stay away from cartographic programs like MapForge (more or less successor to Dundjinni), Fractal Mapper 8 or Campaign Cartographer 3+. I have licensed versions of and have used all three of them myself. Many people have done magnificent work with these programs. But I've never seen a map anywhere made with any of them that in my judgment approaches the quality of the best Photoshop and GIMP creations posted here at the guild. If time is on your side, my recommendation is that you go with Photoshop or GIMP and add whatever other graphic programs that you prefer for secondary work.

However, neither the other members of the Vintyri Project nor I have time on our side. We sometimes need to complete two to three maps in a day's time to drop into a campaign accessory or an RPG in decent (we hope) quality albeit below masterpiece level. Our main goal is strategic usability rather than the beauty of the masters. We've found that we've had no choice but to use a program like MapForge, Fractal Mapper or CC3+. However, which of these programs is best for you depends upon your needs, usage and budget.

One issue goes across all three of these programs in their current versions: They are 32-bit applications, making them quite dated technologically – late 20th century. They can address the resources of a modern PC only to a limited extent. Most frustrating is their ability to use only 4 GB RAM when your computer many have 16, 32 or 64 GB RAM. Photoshop and the GIMP are available in 64-bit versions.

MapForge from Battleground Games LLC:

https://www.mapforge-software.com/

This is a relatively new program designed as a successor to the old flagship mapping program Dundjinni. It can produce maps of near Photoshop or GIMP quality.

Advantages: Lowest learning curve of the three. One can almost sit down and begin to use it. I have yet to see maps by veteran FM8 or CC3+ cartographers that match the quality of good MapForge works.

Disadvantages: 32-Bit application created with Adobe Director in the Lingo programming language, no announced 64-bit plans. The degree to which MapForge is useable is dependent upon the drawing tools that one has available. Too few tools are delivered with MapForge to be able to map much of anything. A large library of add-ons is available. Some are free, but most are for sale. A large percentage of them are licensed only for private use. Anyone who wants a wide variety of maps needs to make a substantial investment or spend considerable time downloading objects and textures from the Internet and importing them into MapForge. Users of the MapForge forum still are reporting early post-Beta problems with crashes and operational failures. However, the program has been in full release status for only a few months.

Campaign Cartographer 3+ from ProFantasy Software Ltd:

https://www.profantasy.com/

The oldest of the cartographic programs, with the first version dating back to the DOS era. CC3+ is an application that runs atop the FastCAD program, making it the only main cartographic program that also is a CAD application. CC3+ can use both raster and vector graphics and even mix them in the same map. It can use only vector graphics in its own vector format. It uses PNG graphics for raster symbols or objects. Third party PNGs can be used, but they should be brought first into CC3+ through import procedures. The program includes the ability to apply a wide variety of special effects, greater in number than those offered by MapForge or FM8. As delivered, CC3+ is mainly an overland mapping program. It has only limited abilities and tools for mapping dungeons, cities, modern settings or science fiction elements. Add-on programs are available to extend CC3+ into these areas, but they all come at their own price. Additional add-ons are available for NPC character portraits and ISO-style maps. More than 20,000 additional third party symbols (objects) and fill patterns (textures) are available for CC3+ in free third party add-ons that can be downloaded from the Internet. These have their own installation programs and integrate fully into CC3+. The program comes with a limited manual, but users can buy a very comprehensive super-manual called the Tome of Ultimate Mapping. At an additional price one also can buy annuals, which are yearly packages of 12 sets of drawing tools, symbols, etc.

Advantages: A user who has mastered CC3+ can make maps approaching the quality of the finest Photoshop and GIMP cartography seen here at the guild.

Disadvantages: 32-Bit application, no announced 64-bit plans. One must make something of a monetary investment in add-ons to begin to make full use of CC3+. One must make an even greater investment in time to master the huge learning curve of CC3+. Many users measure that learning curve in years. To do significant dungeon mapping, one must buy the Dungeon Designer 3 add-on. To do significant city and village mapping, one must buy the City Designer 3 add-on. To do significant sci-fi mapping, one must buy the Cosmographer Add-On. Users of ProFantasy's own forum regularly complain of program crashes and failures. Editable native format maps are portable to only a very limited degree between different computers.

Fractal Mapper 8 and 9

NBOS Software

https://www.nbos.com/

Please note: At this time one either should wait before buying Fractal Mapper or buy Fractal Mapper 8 with an update in mind. The much improved Fractal Mapper 9 is about to go into beta testing and is expected to be released sometime this year.

FM8 and FM9 can use both raster and vector graphics and even mix them in the same map. They can use only vector graphics in their own vector format. They can use BMP, JPG (where transparency is unneeded) and PNG (with transparency) graphics for raster symbols or objects. Third party PNGs can be used by simply copying them into the desired folders. FM8 includes the ability to apply a wide variety of special effects, although fewer than those offered by MapForge or CC3+. FM9 will offer additional effects. Only very small libraries of raster and vector graphic symbols and fills are included with FM8. FM9 has new graphics libraries. However, more than 20,000 additional third party symbols and fills are available for FM8 and FM9 in free add-ins that can be downloaded from the Internet. These have their own installation programs and integrate fully into FM8 and FM9. As delivered, FM8 and FM9 are fully equipped for overland, dungeon and city cartography. The free third party add-ons mentioned above add the ability to make sci-fi maps. NBOS provides two, free PDF manuals that are fully comprehensive.

Advantages: The learning curve for FM8 and FM9 are low but not as low as with MapForge. However, with a week's intensive use together with the manuals, one can begin mapping on a master level with FM8 and FM9. The programs are inclusive. No add-ons are offered or needed, making FM8 and FM9 the most inexpensive of the three programs. FM8 is the stablest of the three programs. There has been no repair update for 4 years, and there are no crash reports or complaints on the forums.

Disadvantages: FM8 is a 32-bit application, however, FM9 will be offered in a 64-bit version.

[Anri]

Not sure if you're wanting to make battlemap or campaign scale maps, but on the battlemap side I've had pretty good luck with a combination of Bryce, Poser, and Photoshop.

I create the terrains in Bryce then export them to Poser to render them and any trees, houses, objects, etc. Everything gets composited together in Photoshop with shading/lighting and effects.

For someone just getting started, DAZ studio may be the better choice than Poser these days, but I'm pretty well entrenched in that regard.

As others have said, if you're willing to put the time in, you can do anything with photoshop.

[heruca]

One issue goes across all three of these programs in their current versions: They are 32-bit applications, making them quite dated technologically – late 20th century. They can address the resources of a modern PC only to a limited extent. Most frustrating is their ability to use only 4 GB RAM when your computer many have 16, 32 or 64 GB RAM.

Late 20th century?! Wide support of 64-bit Windows didn't really happen until Windows 7 in 2009, and it probably took several more years before the majority of Windows systems were 64-bit.

Disadvantages: 32-Bit Java application, no announced 64-bit plans.

Correction: MapForge is not a Java application. It's created with Adobe Director, and the programming language is called Lingo. The app doesn't require any additional frameworks be installed, as it's completely self-contained.

[Mark Oliva]

Greetings again!

Late 20th century?! Wide support of 64-bit Windows didn't really happen until Windows 7 in 2009, and it probably took several more years before the majority of Windows systems were 64-bit.

A matter of viewpoint and opinion, I suppose. I use a wide variety of programs on my PCs. The only applications that I use with any frequency that still are 32-bit programs are MapForge, CC3+, Fractal Mapper 8 and some Nero applications. All of my other frequently used applications are 64-bit programs and have been 64-bit programs for quite some time. Now that we're 19 years into the 21st Century, I think it's more than time for cartographic programs to go there too. But the coming Fractal Mapper 9 is the only one of the programs ready to make the jump. Still ... it is a matter of opinion, of course. My opinion is that 32-bit Windows software is antiquated, still lost in the 20th century. We have to agree to disagree there. But I still like you and your software, Hernan!

Correction: MapForge is not a Java application. It's created with Adobe Director, and the programming language is called Lingo. The app doesn't require any additional frameworks be installed, as it's completely self-contained.

Thanks for the correction and apologies for the error. Obviously one of the databases in my brain was polluted with garbage. I'll edit and correct my original posting.

[Azélor]

The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores. It can be very hard to code depending on the kind of things you want the program to do. So you end up with a 64 bit software where 75% of the work is done by a single core. This is a serious bottleneck since we basically reached the maximum power per core. Cpu are getting more powerful only when multitasking, not really on intensive load unless the program is optimized to spread the workload efficiently.

So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

[waldronate]

So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

Depending on the precise workload, a 64-bit program can be slower than the equivalent 32-bit version. However, if the working sets are large, a 64-bit program can be much faster. It's even weirder on Windows, where a 32-bit program running on a 64-bit OS can handle much larger data sets than the exact same program running on a 32-bit OS (CC3+ is such a program).

[Mark Oliva]

The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores. <SNIP> So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

I agree, of course, when it comes to processor performance. However, the difference in performance between 4 GB RAM (all that's available to 32-bit applications) and 64 GB RAM (available to 64-bit applications) can be tremendous, to say the least.

[Mark Oliva]

As others have said, if you're willing to put the time in, you can do anything with photoshop.

I would change that to read:

you can do anything with photoshop or the GIMP.

And then I would agree 100%, as long as the following clause remains:

if you're willing to put the time in

However, if time is a factor, one can make a lighted dungeon corridor with special effects with CC3+ and DD3 in substantially less time than it would take to create exactly the same dungeon corridor with Photoshop or the GIMP.

[Anri]

I would change that to read:

you can do anything with photoshop or the GIMP.

And then I would agree 100%...

I'll admit I probably haven't given the GIMP enough of a chance.
Tried it once about 10 years ago. There were a few features I use all the time that didn't seem to be there so I went back to Photoshop.
I think it was something with layer blending modes and complex brushes (scatter, dual brush, etc.)
Of course, given how long ago that was, they may both have all the same feature sets now, just in a different flavor.

So, yes, try everything (especially the free programs) to find what works for you.

Thank you for the addition, Mark.

[nichendrix]

I'll personally always recommend Photoshop as a mapping software. It takes a little time to get really comfortable with it, but once you do and combine it with a graphics tablet, there is no limits to what it can do for you. This is also a fantastical place for learning this stuff; I can honestly say that everything I know about using Photoshop today, and I dare say I'm getting pretty handy with it these days, I have learned from the tutorials on this Guild. I knew practically nothing about it going in.

As far as vector software goes, I for one can give a warm recommendation for Affinity Designer. I use AfDe for pretty much all my vector needs and I really like it. I kinda prefer it to Illustrator, it just is less troublesome with some essential little things.

I know a lot of people use the ProFantasy software for mapping, but I've never really used any of those, with the exception for Fractal Terrains which I own for the occasional inspiration boost. So I'm not the best person to say yay or nay on them. Many people do like them though, so I doubt they are too terrible.

My very biased personal view on this, feel free to ignore this PS nut

@Kellerica I have enough skill with Photoshop and GIMP to do most of my digital drawings and paintings, but I could never translate my skills to mapping, but to be really sincere, I didn't put enough time/effort on it, but in the end the few things I've tried to do on PS took me substantial time, which is my main limiting factor. I have at most 8 hours a week to make the maps for my game sessions, most weeks I would have less than that. I may be that if I get the right tutorials and invest some time to it, I can be faster using PS for mapping, but out of the box, I think it is the more time consuming of them.

Greetings!

Sorry I didn't see your posting earlier.

There are a couple of crucial points that you've defined too vaguely for me. You write



and



but you don't make quite clear what your goal is. Why do you want to make maps? The things I quoted suggest that you might want to make maps to use in RPG gaming, but that's not necessarily the case. I would give you varying answers to your base question, depending upon the purpose of your maps.

If you plan to run one or more RPG campaigns as game master, then you will need to make the best maps possible in the least time possible so that the map(s) is/are on the table at your next gaming session.

If ... like the three members of our project group ... you're publishing and all members of the group have equal responsibilities for text and cartography, you also need to complete maps quickly. In that case, all three of us use the same software programs and we map according to a binding style book to map the maps look as though the all come from the same source.

Some guild members make maps on commission for RPGs without text responsibilities. They have various deadlines to meet. Some have to produce a map in a week's time. Others have three of six months or maybe even a year. Those with short deadlines may need different software than those with long deadlines.

There also are lot of guild members who aren't involved in RPGs and who make maps simply for the joy of making maps. They post their work here and elsewhere and that's its end line. Such cartographers are fortunate in a sense, because the only deadlines with which they have to be concerned are those that they set for themselves.

If I were a cartographer with long deadlines or one who simply was making maps for the joy of doing it, I would stay away from cartographic programs like MapForge (more or less successor to Dundjinni), Fractal Mapper 8 or Campaign Cartographer 3+. I have licensed versions of and have used all three of them myself. Many people have done magnificent work with these programs. But I've never seen a map anywhere made with any of them that in my judgment approaches the quality of the best Photoshop and GIMP creations posted here at the guild. If time is on your side, my recommendation is that you go with Photoshop or GIMP and add whatever other graphic programs that you prefer for secondary work.

However, neither the other members of the Vintyri Project nor I have time on our side. We sometimes need to complete two to three maps in a day's time to drop into a campaign accessory or an RPG in decent (we hope) quality albeit below masterpiece level. Our main goal is strategic usability rather than the beauty of the masters. We've found that we've had no choice but to use a program like MapForge, Fractal Mapper or CC3+. However, which of these programs is best for you depends upon your needs, usage and budget.

One issue goes across all three of these programs in their current versions: They are 32-bit applications, making them quite dated technologically – late 20th century. They can address the resources of a modern PC only to a limited extent. Most frustrating is their ability to use only 4 GB RAM when your computer many have 16, 32 or 64 GB RAM. Photoshop and the GIMP are available in 64-bit versions.

My interest in mapping is mostly to use on my RPG games, though I've done some maps by hand as an exercise. If time wasn't a factor, I could easily use Illustrator, CorelDraw, but the process is very time demanding if I want it to look good, which is why I'm looking for a more plug and play approach since I'm playing on a weekly basis.

The main problem I have with the dedicated mapping software I've seen is that they seem to focus on medieval fantasy settings, not the sci-fi stuff I usually play, If I have to make all textures and props and everything I use from scratch I would end up needing more time than I have available.

By your description it seems that FM8/9 is the way to go, as it has a 64-bits version to be released soon. Unfortunatelly it is not possible to tweak with the Smart Building tool so it does sci-fi stuff as well as fantasy settings. Unfortunately I've never seen sci-fi (starship, cities, "dungeons") made in FM8, in this regard CC3+ have quite a gallery of stunning maps/deckplans available.