Felmyr Place Names (WIP)

[Neyasha]

I love the history behind the name of Clover. Such details give a fantasy world a very realistic feeling and some kind of depth.

It's also very interesting to read all your thoughts and inputs to the subject of naming places.
As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.
I think the German version of the Lord of the Rings is one of the rare cases, where the translation of place names works really well - while the translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster (at least for me) and I just stick to the english original. This also shows, that names are really important, when it comes to giving your countries/your world a certain feeling.

And yes, Midleset is a very good name to transport a Victorian-esque feeling.

[aeshnidae]

Weery, you said that Grimmsmouth city has over 700 coherently named elements. Would you share some of those and your thinking behind them?

[aeshnidae]

It's also very interesting to read all your thoughts and inputs to the subject of naming places.
As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.
I think the German version of the Lord of the Rings is one of the rare cases, where the translation of place names works really well - while the translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster (at least for me) and I just stick to the english original. This also shows, that names are really important, when it comes to giving your countries/your world a certain feeling.

That's really interesting, Neyasha, I had not considered the challenges of translating story-relevant names into other languages (likely because when it comes to pop culture, I have Anglo-American privilege and usually don't have to think about it). I'm surprised that English-to-German translation suffers from this problem, though, since English is a Germanic language, although I suppose by now we've incorporated a lot of Romance/Latin words.

This thread motivated me to do an Amazon search for books about the etymology of conlang. I might check out Hobbit Place-Names and The Conlanger's Lexipedia.

[Azélor]

Well, birds did used to be terrifying flying dinosaurs.



Chesapeake, Susquehanna, Chincoteague, Anacostia, Patapsco...you're right, Azélor, there are so many places with Native American names, and I'm so used to them that they don't sound odd.

BTW, Azélor, your heraldry is gorgeous! And the names on your Leohtwald map do give me a feel for the place.

Thanks! Now I'm considering redoing the map. Having the names and geographic elements already placed will save me a ton of decision making.

I'd be interested in the doc if you had it as I'm always keen to learn from/plagiarise other peoples work and experiences

I really can't find it. It might have been deleted or I just can't find it for some reason. I also have names written on a sheet but I don't know where it is.

translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster

It is a disaster in French too.

[Weery]

I love the history behind the name of Clover. Such details give a fantasy world a very realistic feeling and some kind of depth... And yes, Midleset is a very good name to transport a Victorian-esque feeling.

Thank you so much Neyasha Really good for me to get this kind of feedback

As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.

Like Aeshnidae, I'm surprised English to German has this problem! And as both you and Azélor have said, when creating fictional place names in your own native languages they often sound odd. I'm really curious as to why this might be. But I'm in a difficult position to assess it myself. I also suffer form Anlgo-American privilege and I'm not a native Irish speaker.

This thread motivated me to do an Amazon search for books about the etymology of conlang. I might check out Hobbit Place-Names and The Conlanger's Lexipedia.

I think I'd like to know more about conlanging (I currently know so little that I wouldn't even attempt it) but it sounds like a rabbit hole that you could just keep going down for ages But that book does look interesting...

I really can't find it. It might have been deleted or I just can't find it for some reason. I also have names written on a sheet but I don't know where it is.

No worries Azélor but thanks for having a look. I'm just interested to learn from others' processes

Weery, you said that Grimmsmouth city has over 700 coherently named elements. Would you share some of those and your thinking behind them?

I hope to post more on this soon Aeshnidae. I keep an excel sheet with all the details in case I ever get the map complete so I can use the data on a Google maps type programme. But I don't really know how to do that bit yet either. Dream big I guess

[Neyasha]

That's really interesting, Neyasha, I had not considered the challenges of translating story-relevant names into other languages (likely because when it comes to pop culture, I have Anglo-American privilege and usually don't have to think about it). I'm surprised that English-to-German translation suffers from this problem, though, since English is a Germanic language, although I suppose by now we've incorporated a lot of Romance/Latin words.

It's a bit hard to describe, at least in English (although I'm used to read in English a lot, my active language skills are quite rusty), but when it comes to Westeros the main problem is, that a lot of names are just literally translated, without considering the structure of typical German toponyms. And sometitimes there are just parts of the names translated, which leads to weird hybrid forms, for example: Mummer's Fort > Mummersfurt (but in German it should be Mummenfurt) or Casterly Rock > Casterlystein. Of course their are some names which work great, but overall Westeros doesn't have a "real" or "historical" feeling in the German translation, but more a "typical fantasy" feeling.

On the other hand, when it comes to Middle-earth (especially the Shire), the German place names don't just sound like translated from another language. There are wonderful names like Auenbronn, Michelbinge, Wasserau, Graue Anfurten or Ohnbüttel, which I could totally imagine on a real map - and although there are also some weird names, the overall feeling of the world just works really well.

And now I really have to find the "Hobbit Place-Names" in the library.

[Azélor]

Like Aeshnidae, I'm surprised English to German has this problem! And as both you and Azélor have said, when creating fictional place names in your own native languages they often sound odd. I'm really curious as to why this might be. But I'm in a difficult position to assess it myself. I also suffer form Anlgo-American privilege and I'm not a native Irish speaker.

It depends and it's complicated.
As Neyasha, simply translating names does not always work well. Names can create a certain feeling , use the wrong synonym and you can ruin that.

There is also the fact that (take ASOIAF for example) when you get used to English names and English voices of the actors, the French version sounds somewhat silly. Your used to hear King's Landing, now it's Port Réal or something ?

Up until quite recently, I had no idea that Ottawa and Outaouais was actually the same name. We use both in French but Anglo only use the first.

[aeshnidae]

I think I'd like to know more about conlanging (I currently know so little that I wouldn't even attempt it) but it sounds like a rabbit hole that you could just keep going down for ages But that book does look interesting...

I hope to post more on this soon Aeshnidae. I keep an excel sheet with all the details in case I ever get the map complete so I can use the data on a Google maps type programme. But I don't really know how to do that bit yet either. Dream big I guess

Nice! I also have an Excel sheet with info about my game world (way, way more than will ever make it into the game). I'm always interested in how other people organize (or not) their creative processes.

It's a bit hard to describe, at least in English (although I'm used to read in English a lot, my active language skills are quite rusty), but when it comes to Westeros the main problem is, that a lot of names are just literally translated, without considering the structure of typical German toponyms. And sometitimes there are just parts of the names translated, which leads to weird hybrid forms, for example: Mummer's Fort > Mummersfurt (but in German it should be Mummenfurt) or Casterly Rock > Casterlystein. Of course their are some names which work great, but overall Westeros doesn't have a "real" or "historical" feeling in the German translation, but more a "typical fantasy" feeling.

Your active language skills seem quite good to me. Thanks for explaining (Azélor, thank you, too), that makes a lot of sense. And while I don't speak German, just the sounds of the names you listed from Middle Earth evoke a certain feeling.

[Weery]

That's a really interesting point Neyasha, that the LotR translation seems to work. Like Aeshnidae says, those German names already begin to evoke a particular feeling. I've read The Hobbit translated into Irish and I felt the same way about that translation.

You also make the point well about the importance of feeling, Azélor (especially by using the terrible example of Port Réal ). The Irish version of The Hobbit is translated to An Hobad (pronounced on hob-ad) and honestly, this feels perfect straight away!

Another really good example is how the name Hobbiton is translated. Hobbiton is I guess, a contraction of Hobbit Town. So this translates directly into Baile na Hobad, Town of the Hobbits. It suits the tone perfectly as it brings to mind (to my Irish mind at least) an image of a small provincial town, a countryside village or similar. It's perfectly in tune with the tone of the book!

An interesting aside is that if Baile na Hobad was to be anglicised it wouldn't become Hobbiton. It would turn into Ballyhobbad or something along those lines And funnily enough, that sounds right to me, too

[aeshnidae]

This was just posted to one of my Facebook groups, by a native English speaker who is reading the Harry Potter series in French. She commented on how the names are translated:

- Gryffindor > Gryffondor
- Ravenclaw > Serdaigle ("aigle" means "eagle")
- Slytherin > Serpentard
- Hufflepuff > Poufsouffle

- Draco > Drago
- Snape > Rogue (!! A completely different name for one of the most important characters! I guess "Snape" doesn't evoke much in French, since neither "Snake" nor "Snipe" are words. "Rogue" means the same in French as in English.)
- Prof. Sprout > Prof. Chourave ("kohlrabi"!! Hahaha)
- Hedwig > Hedwige
- Neville LongBottom > Neville Londubat (something like "far from the beat")
- Mrs Norris the cat > Miss Teigne (literally "nagger")
- Scabbers the rat > Croutard (direct translation of "Scabbers")
- Nearly-Headless Nick > Nick Quasi-Sans-Tete (literal)
- Moaning Myrtle > Mimi Geignarde ("Whining Mimi")
- Madam Hooch > Madame Bibine ("Madam Booze")
- Tom Marvolo Riddle > Tom Elvis Jedusor. They had to come up with a whole new anagram: "I am Lord Voldemort" > "Je Suis Voldemort". Also, "Jeu du Sort" means "game/riddle of fate". IMPRESSIVE.

- Muggles > Moldus
- Diagon Alley > Chemin de Travers ("Way/Path Through")
- Knockturn Alley > Allee des Embrumes (literally "Knockturn Alley"... without the pun)
- Mudblood > Sang de Bourbe (Mired Blood, or maybe BloodMire)

I wondered if they would change any of the names that are just straight-up French words, so it's not so... you know, obvious. But nope! French people are literally reading about a villain named "Flight of Death". lol. The surname of Harry's school enemy is "Done Badly" or possibly "Bad Time". lolol. And no-one can guess that the werewolf might be the new professor whose name is "Professor Wolf".