How to choose a tool for mapping?

[Mark Oliva]

By your description it seems that FM8/9 is the way to go, as it has a 64-bits version to be released soon. Unfortunately it is not possible to tweak with the Smart Building tool so it does sci-fi stuff as well as fantasy settings. Unfortunately I've never seen sci-fi (starship, cities, "dungeons") made in FM8, in this regard CC3+ have quite a gallery of stunning maps/deckplans available.

Just for the record ... I'm not trying to sell any one program. As Heruca has pointed out, Map Forge has an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

If you use FM8 or FM9 with the Fractal World Explorer (included in the FM8/FM9 package) and download and install the free CSUAC and the free Dundjinni Archives into FM8 or FM9, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

If you use CC3+ with Cosmographer (a separate ProFantasy add-in that must be purchased) and download and install the free CSUAC 2 and the free Dundjinni Archives into CC3+, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

[nichendrix]

Just for the record ... I'm not trying to sell any one program. As Heruca has pointed out, Map Forge has an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

I didn't think you were trying to sell me any of the programs, you just presented me with your view of each of them, which was exactly what I asked for. Your comments gave a lot to think about the mentioned programs.

If you use FM8 or FM9 with the Fractal World Explorer (included in the FM8/FM9 package) and download and install the free CSUAC and the free Dundjinni Archives into FM8 or FM9, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

I've downloaded the CSUAC and DA sets for all platforms available in the Vintyri Project website. They seem to have an insane amount of texture and symbols, even tough the amount of symbols specifically for sci-fi and modern stuff seems to be rather small compared to medieval fantasy, but thaylt assimetry is part of the gaming life.

I whish that there were more examples of sci-fi maps made with FM8, things like cities/towns, starship deckplans, battlemaps, "dungeon" maps, etc., specially maps on the better quality side, since the few I've seen were mostly on the low quality side.

If you use CC3+ with Cosmographer (a separate ProFantasy add-in that must be purchased) and download and install the free CSUAC 2 and the free Dundjinni Archives into CC3+, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

Unlike FM8 where I'm yet to see a high quality sci-fi stuff, I found that there are plenty of high quality examples of all kinds of maps made with CC3+ and Cosmographer, from cities, to buildings/dungeons, to starship deckplans, to star maps, there are examples of all kinds of things with a good portion of them on the high quality side.

In the end I'm leaning to start with FM8/FM9 and Astrosynthesis, most people I've consulted here and on other fóruns, says it has a friendly learning curve, the cost of the bundle is less than half the price I would pay for CC3+, and it has a 64-bit version on the near future.

Even so don't think that it would take very long to get my way on CC3+'s GUI. Since I use AutoCAD since R11 for DOS version and also used FastCAD back in the day. I've started using CAD in the early 90's when I was just a kid my mother conscripted to help her in her architecture projects when the deadlines are short and the work still nedding to be done were plenty. Back when I was younger and had far more time, I would use AutoCAD to make most of my maps, then would export them to Illustrator or Corel Draw to add color and effects to the map. But nowadays I don't have that amount of time anymore.

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[Azélor]

The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores. It can be very hard to code depending on the kind of things you want the program to do. So you end up with a 64 bit software where 75% of the work is done by a single core. This is a serious bottleneck since we basically reached the maximum power per core. Cpu are getting more powerful only when multitasking, not really on intensive load unless the program is optimized to spread the workload efficiently.

So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

[waldronate]

So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

Depending on the precise workload, a 64-bit program can be slower than the equivalent 32-bit version. However, if the working sets are large, a 64-bit program can be much faster. It's even weirder on Windows, where a 32-bit program running on a 64-bit OS can handle much larger data sets than the exact same program running on a 32-bit OS (CC3+ is such a program).

[Mark Oliva]

The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores. <SNIP> So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

I agree, of course, when it comes to processor performance. However, the difference in performance between 4 GB RAM (all that's available to 32-bit applications) and 64 GB RAM (available to 64-bit applications) can be tremendous, to say the least.

[ladiestorm]

If you don't mind, I'm going to jump in again, for a moment. As I stated before, I use CC3+ exclusively, though I don't have every product that profantasy has to offer. I own cc3+/cd3/dd3, with Fractal Terrains, and Perspectives. I also have Symbol Sets 1, 2, and 3. Plus, I have just about every third party add on that the Vyntiri Project provides. Oh, I also have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping, as well.

I've been using cc3+ for almost three years now, and I will freely admit, that I am still learning how to use the program. Now, don't get me wrong, I have made some pretty decent maps in cc3+, from villages, to dungeons, to regional maps. I'm currently working on a world map that was started in factal terrains, and I have various projects going all at once.

I'm a writer, but I'm also a gamer. I play D&D, Mech Warrior, Scion, some of the other White Wolf games, and some games that are completely thought up by our GM's. I also run Scion, D&D, and Mech Warrior games. I purchased cc3+ to create maps for those games.

CC3+ does have a lot of advantages, as Mark posted earlier. And I've known Mark for all of the three years I've been using cc3+, and I know he's very knowledgeable about these programs. I'm not refuting anything Mark has already told you, just adding something else for consideration.


Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives: isometric, and top-down views. But this can be a disadvantage as well. CC3+ overland maps are drawn in isometric. Now there is no problem there, as far as I am concerned. Dungeons and cities/villages, are drawn in a top-down view (unless you have perspectives... which I have, but so far haven't been able to work with). Now, using some of the overland symbols, if you are drawing a fantasy map (medieval or dark ages style), you can actually make an isometric town, village or even city. Tonnichiwa, here at the guild, has some great examples of having done just that.

One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer which I don't have yet (that is my next purchase). Now for someone like me, that runs sci-fi games, like Mech Warrior, or my husband, who runs Star Trek games... that's problematic when we want to make world or regional maps of a sci-fi nature. There are some modern symbols for city map making, and there are some symbols that will work with either, but even for cd3, there aren't as many things to work in a modern setting as there is for fantasy. CC3+ has rastor symbols, but not vector ones. I don't use rastor symbols much, I prefer vector.


Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+. Which means you could make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings. But again, that takes time. I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.

[Mark Oliva]

Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives: isometric, and top-down views.

<SNIP>

Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+. Which means you could make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings. But again, that takes time. I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with anything that Storm has said, but one should point out that the things mentioned above are by no means exclusive to CC3+, They apply just as well to MapForge and Fractal Mapper 8. All three programs use PNG graphics as symbols, so if you acquire a PNG symbol or make one, you could use it in any of the three programs. FM8 also includes ISO symbols for overland mapping in both its PNG and vector symbol sets. That doesn't apply directly to MapForge, because it works with add-in graphic packages rather than individual PNG symbols, however, one can import individual PNG symbols into MapForge.

One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer

There aren't any in Cosmographer either or anywhere else including RPGMapShare, as far as I know. I'm pretty familiar with what's on the RPGMapShare site, and I have Cosmographer. Cosmographer has mostly symbols for furnishing the interiors of spaceships and space stations in deckplan mode. It has planets and similar space objects in starmap mode. It has geographic symbolry and hexagon landscape fill stamp symbols in overland mode.

ProFantasy also has issued a few annuals with sci-fi tools, but I've never seen them, so I can't comment upon them.

The space/sci-fi part of the Dundjinni Archives, which are free in both CC3+ and FM8 versions and can be imported into MapForge, also has symbols for furnishing space ships and space stations in deckplan mode along with personal equipment and creatures. It has planets and a wide variety of spaceships in starmap mode. It has nothing in overland mode.

The Symbol Set 3 add-on for CC3+ includes modern symbols typical for the 20th Century. Things like computers already are outdated for the 21st Century.

For the record: I have licensed installations of MapForge with quite a few add-ons, Fractal Mapper 8 and CC3+ with the eight main add-ons, including Cosmographer and Symbol Set 3. I have mapping experience with all of them.

I whish that there were more examples of sci-fi maps made with FM8, things like cities/towns, starship deckplans, battlemaps, "dungeon" maps, etc., specially maps on the better quality side, since the few I've seen were mostly on the low quality side.
Unlike FM8 where I'm yet to see a high quality sci-fi stuff, I found that there are plenty of high quality examples of all kinds of maps made with CC3+ and Cosmographer, from cities, to buildings/dungeons, to starship deckplans, to star maps, there are examples of all kinds of things with a good portion of them on the high quality side.

I find that strange too. FM8 is produced by NBOS Software. It's top-selling program is AstroSynthesis, which can work together with FM8. AS/FM8 users produce a lot of "how to" queries, but if they post their maps anywhere in the Internet, I have no idea where that is.

[nichendrix]

I find that strange too. FM8 is produced by NBOS Software. It's top-selling program is AstroSynthesis, which can work together with FM8. AS/FM8 users produce a lot of "how to" queries, but if they post their maps anywhere in the Internet, I have no idea where that is.

Isn't that strange? I've been mining for examples for some months, but I've only found three examples of starship deckplans and they were very basic and on the not pretty at all side.

I spent a some time with the trial version of AstroSynthesis and couldn't find any good tutorials for beginners, only after a time asking around in the official community I've found out that there is a PDF manual in the program folder, but there's no link or mentiob to it in the program's GUI.

As far as I could use it during the 14 days trial, I've found that the star map generation is rather interesting, though it lacks in options for the maps, for instance you can only generate top, side and front views, I couldn't find a isometric view, that would be nice to later process in PS to look like an holo-message.

I whish I could find modern and sci-fi buildings to add to my city maps, but it seems that I'll have to make them all from scratch, which would take a long time to finish enough buildings that would be feasible for use on sci-fi town/city maps.

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[Mark Oliva]

.I whish I could find modern and sci-fi buildings to add to my city maps, but it seems that I'll have to make them all from scratch, which would take a long time to finish enough buildings that would be feasible for use on sci-fi town/city maps.

You have my sympathy, but there's not much more that I can offer on that point.

If you want to build a modern or futuristic world, you will probably need Cosmographer, and probably SS3 (symbol set 3).

Symbol Set 3 won't do much for you on the futuristic side. It's modern in the sense of a little while before the present, mirroring the late 20th century but not yet into the 21st.

[nichendrix]

If you don't mind, I'm going to jump in again, for a moment. As I stated before, I use CC3+ exclusively, though I don't have every product that profantasy has to offer. I own cc3+/cd3/dd3, with Fractal Terrains, and Perspectives. I also have Symbol Sets 1, 2, and 3. Plus, I have just about every third party add on that the Vyntiri Project provides. Oh, I also have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping, as well.

I've been using cc3+ for almost three years now, and I will freely admit, that I am still learning how to use the program. Now, don't get me wrong, I have made some pretty decent maps in cc3+, from villages, to dungeons, to regional maps. I'm currently working on a world map that was started in factal terrains, and I have various projects going all at once.

I'm a writer, but I'm also a gamer. I play D&D, Mech Warrior, Scion, some of the other White Wolf games, and some games that are completely thought up by our GM's. I also run Scion, D&D, and Mech Warrior games. I purchased cc3+ to create maps for those games.

CC3+ does have a lot of advantages, as Mark posted earlier. And I've known Mark for all of the three years I've been using cc3+, and I know he's very knowledgeable about these programs. I'm not refuting anything Mark has already told you, just adding something else for consideration.


Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives: isometric, and top-down views. But this can be a disadvantage as well. CC3+ overland maps are drawn in isometric. Now there is no problem there, as far as I am concerned. Dungeons and cities/villages, are drawn in a top-down view (unless you have perspectives... which I have, but so far haven't been able to work with). Now, using some of the overland symbols, if you are drawing a fantasy map (medieval or dark ages style), you can actually make an isometric town, village or even city. Tonnichiwa, here at the guild, has some great examples of having done just that.

One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer which I don't have yet (that is my next purchase). Now for someone like me, that runs sci-fi games, like Mech Warrior, or my husband, who runs Star Trek games... that's problematic when we want to make world or regional maps of a sci-fi nature. There are some modern symbols for city map making, and there are some symbols that will work with either, but even for cd3, there aren't as many things to work in a modern setting as there is for fantasy. CC3+ has rastor symbols, but not vector ones. I don't use rastor symbols much, I prefer vector.


Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+. Which means you could make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings. But again, that takes time. I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.

It seems that for sci-fi stuff, CC3+ is as limited as MapForge and FM8 in terms of ready to use content.

If it CC3+CD could generate sci-fi or futuristic cities it would be the most interesting thing to me, but you said they are also geared towards fantasy settings.

One thing I've noticed is that it takes around $150 to have all the add-ons to really make sci-fi stuff with CC3+. MapForge is way cheaper, but with all the add-ons it seems it falls on the same price range as CC3+. On the other hand, FM8+AS costs only $50 bucks, which is odd given it is 1/3rd of its competitors costs, or am I missing something?

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