Other World Mapper (mapping software), feedback request and future changes

[OWM]

I have created a video demonstration of me making a fantasy island map exclusively in Other World Mapper. No tutorial text or talking over, just a 7700% faster screen capture of me using OWM to make up a map on the fly using its native tools. I've never done a video before, but it seemed like an appropriate first video to make, to demo a new program's capabilities. Actual working time is more like 5 hours (video is 5 minutes), which is still quite fast for this level of detail. I would have expected to spend more like 20-40 hours if I was illustrating something like this, on the low end if I was making my own assets and stamping them but nonetheless.

Video is perfect! We've been wanting to do a timelapse video like that, but with your mapping skills it looks awesome!

I have to say, while I have figured out how the click to follow works since my post, I still get a glitch with it where just as I go to click to connect it, it disconnects, puts a line across the whole section straight instead of following, and I have to undo and reset. This is potentially visible in the video a few times, though it does happen very fast.

Glad you were able to get it to mostly work. We'll look into the glitch, after the current release is out the "follow" is one of the things we were going to re-visit and add more functionality too.

while I have made several more notes in an email draft to you (so I stop cluttering the forum LOL),

Please do and send us an email when you are ready. Love the feedback and getting as much of it as we can into OWM.

Or like, now that I've figured out how the tool to add trees works, I love that I can cycle and randomly pick from the folder I'm in, and create sets like that. Really has high potential for creating regional sets. Some of my clients are meticulous enough to tell me what types of trees grow in an area, so now I can cluster trees from the central art management database instead of creating a whole new brush each time. While I do want there to be size and color jitter options to make it even more flexible, it is remarkably intuitive once you really dig into creating a map.

We were able to sneak in color blend modes and opacity for colorization of features with the upcoming release (just add, multi, and alpha - but still better), so we should be able to add more randomization options with the release after, including color and scale.

In so many ways, it behaves like I WISHED Photoshop could, and knew it never would. I can tell this program is a labor of love designed by people who really listened to the critique and desires of real humans who draw maps, not just a cash grab. And that's why, since the cost to purchase was so reasonable, I'm participating to give back in another way–building hype. I'm talking your program up, because I think it's the next best thing since "expand selection, stroke, expand selection, stroke." I wouldn't bother, except you charge such a reasonable price for it the least I can do is try get a few people excited about it. Let's kick those respective subscription model's arses! All hail reasonably priced programs from small studios!

Thank you!!! And yeah, I really dislike subscription model for software and I'm not particularly happy with DRM software either, hence our one time purchase, DRM free commitment.

[Mark Oliva]

Our project group has run OWM through the paces in tests with the demo version. Conclusions:

1) Compared with other 32-bit cartographic applications, it's impressive.

2) However, it's not a program that we would consider using. Just like CC3+, Dundjinni, MapForge etc., we consider the software to be obsolete. Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade. OWM, like the other programs I mentioned, allows us to use only 4GB of that memory and also denies us the use of many other advantages of the operating system. This would have been a great entry 15 years ago. We'll skip it.

[Tiana]

I'll try do some more video recordings since it gives a way to actually look back and see what was going on when I glitched. I determined one of the things is that, I click outside of the canvas when creating a shape of some sort, and would like it to stick there instead of then following me when I move my hand and click somewhere else, creating a point on the closest part of the canvas.

I look forward to seeing what the new release will be like and definitely understand you can't apply all the feedback immediately.

Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade.

Dayum. I didn't even know it was possible to get a computer with 64gb RAM. You're obviously on the cutting edge and investing a serious amount of cash into your setup in that case (presumably as a publisher doing intense digital work it made sense and was a business expense?) and I doubt there's going to be many people here who can match your machine for power. I just got Windows 10 this year, and 16 gigs of RAM. You're definitely on the upper end of the bell curve, probably somewhere a bit below "Disney's rendering power" and "military computers".

I appreciate that the program uses a minimal amount of RAM while performing as powerfully as it does, and I believe many other average computer users will feel the same way. There are tons of people using laptops with 4-8gb because they never put their machine through rigorous artistic tasks who still might want to make a map, so putting its performance right in the realm of "average joe" makes a lot of sense to me. I can see why that would make it no good for your team though, and it looks like you do more of a 3D sort of art style so it makes sense why you'd want more RAM.

I wouldn't mind tapping into more of my RAM but I never had any moments where I felt the program was moving slower than I could think.

Edit: Ran it through a 20x30 map last night and definitely started seeing performance hangups at that size.

[OWM]

Our project group has run OWM through the paces in tests with the demo version. Conclusions:

1) Compared with other 32-bit cartographic applications, it's impressive.

2) However, it's not a program that we would consider using. Just like CC3+, Dundjinni, MapForge etc., we consider the software to be obsolete. Our PCs all have 32 to 64 GB memory and have been running 64-bit operating systems for more than a decade. OWM, like the other programs I mentioned, allows us to use only 4GB of that memory and also denies us the use of many other advantages of the operating system. This would have been a great entry 15 years ago. We'll skip it.

Thank you so much for the comments and feedback!

Other World Mapper is a 64 bit application (the Installer will install a 32 version if your system is 32 bits), so I'm not sure what you mean with saying it only allows 4GB of RAM use? Also not sure what other operating system advantages it denies use? Let us know so we can look into it!

The only limitation is maps right now can't be larger than 20000 x 20000 pixels, which is something that will be removed later this year.

Thank you!

[Mark Oliva]

Other World Mapper is a 64 bit application (the Installer will install a 32 version if your system is 32 bits), so I'm not sure what you mean with saying it only allows 4GB of RAM use?

So far, I've installed only the demo version. It installs under 64-bit Windows 10 Pro as a 32-bit app. Is something going wrong there, or is only the full version a 64-bit app? If it will be available on a 64-bit basis, that, of course, will change our appraisal considerably. In that case, we obviously can use more than 4 GB of memory and the following point ...

Also not sure what other operating system advantages it denies use?

... would be moot.

[OWM]

So far, I've installed only the demo version. It installs under 64-bit Windows 10 Pro as a 32-bit app. Is something going wrong there, or is only the full version a 64-bit app? If it will be available on a 64-bit basis, that, of course, will change our appraisal considerably. In that case, we obviously can use more than 4 GB of memory and the following point ...



... would be moot.

It defaults to Program Files (x86) for the installation path for legacy reasons (first alpha builds were 32 bit), but the actual app is 64 bits. Simple check is creating a map that is 20k x 20k pixels and add a few elements to it, RAM usage per task manager will show more than 4GB.

We'll look into updating the install script so it will default to just plain Program Files if it's a new installation.

Thank you!

- Alejandro

[Mark Oliva]

It defaults to Program Files (x86) for the installation path for legacy reasons (first alpha builds were 32 bit), but the actual app is 64 bits.

It's clear that installing in Program Files (x86) does not define an app as being 32-bit. I have figured out what in my installation caused limited memory access. The process might give you some useful information. But maybe not, too, because I use protective software on our computers that probably isn't on most other users' machines.

1) I did not install the demo version as an administrator. I ordinarily do that when I install something, but I simply forget the step when installing the demo. I realized that right away, but since the demo seemed to run, I thought, Okay.

2) I used monitoring software to check performance. I opened the OWM demo and began piling 3rd party PNG symbols, each with a size of >100 MB, into the test map. Every time the memory monitor showed it was nearing 4 GB capacity, OWM crashed with a freeze. The monitor showed no noticeable change within the upper 60 GB of memory. There were no error messages. The program simply became inactive and the Windows 10 Pro task manager reported that OWM was not responding. I killed the dead session with the task manager.

3) The combination of the Program Files (x86) installation with the crashes at <4 GB memory usage led me to believe that I'm dealing with a 32-but app. I did no additional checking to see whether I was running on a 32- or 64-bit level.

4) Last night, I uninstalled the demo, manually checked for registry entries, erased those that were there, rebooted and installed the demo again, this time running the installation as an administrator. The issues described above no longer were there.

Conclusion: It probably is good to always run the OWM installation as an administrator. Others may not have problems with not doing so, but if such issues are going to occur, running installation as an administrator might prevent them.

Servus,

[Mark Oliva]

The Help File contains the following:

18 Presets and Themes
Presets are saved under folders which together make up a “Theme.” You can create a new
Theme and add Presets to the Theme using the Preset window.
These folders are saved in the installation path and may be copied and shared with others.

That's good news, of course. Is there any information anywhere on how to make a new theme and preset?

Error situation:

owm_error_msg.png

This message occurred with the demo version and it still occurs with the full version. The reason that it appears is that the OWM installation did not create the folder in question. If one knows one's way around the computer one can fix it easily enough. One only needs to create the folder manually, and after that, the message no longer appears.

Again, this may be a nearly unique problem due to protective software on our computers. It's possible that the software keeps the OWM setup from creating this folder. I have no way to know whether that's the case.

Is there a place online at Three Minds where these things can be posted? They really might be of little interest to most guild members.

Servus,

EDIT: OK. I've since learned that the error message above is a known bug planned for repair in the next release.

I've also learned that you folks have a forum. Unfortunately I can't post there yet because my account remains inactive. So it goes.

On the presets and themes question above, a private E-Mail has made clear to me that I didn't make myself very clear. I already have read the instructions in the help PDF. I know the basics. What I want to know:

1. What does one need to do to make presets like your river presets that will work in OWM?

2. How does one make presets with faded edges like those delivered that will work in OWM?

FYI: I've read the full help guide and the homepage tutorials, and I've run the two videos you have on YouTube, but I have quite a number of questions to raise and points to make. However I'll wait until that day when my forum account is active.

Servus,

[Mark Oliva]

I didn't even know it was possible to get a computer with 64gb RAM. You're obviously on the cutting edge and investing a serious amount of cash into your setup in that case

Actually, I think you'll find a number of people here with 32 GB RAM. 64 GB wouldn't be all that rare either.

presumably as a publisher doing intense digital work it made sense and was a business expense

I'm retired. The Vintyri (TM) Project is a non-profit. We produce free, open-source, open gaming material. We are not a business and do no business. But we probably will release a beta soon that will substantially expand OWM's mapping possibilities, if it runs correctly. The alpha version already appears to do so.

I appreciate that the program uses a minimal amount of RAM while performing as powerfully as it does, and I believe many other average computer users will feel the same way. There are tons of people using laptops with 4-8gb because they never put their machine through rigorous artistic tasks who still might want to make a map, so putting its performance right in the realm of "average joe" makes a lot of sense to me.

Actually, I think this kind of misses the point. I'd never suggest that OWM be programmed to need 32 or 64 GB RAM. I don't know why anyone would suggest that. But I do want my programs to be able to use the RAM that I have when they need it, which can be the case with some huge maps that have a large graphical content.

it looks like you do more of a 3D sort of art styl

We do no 3D, but we do use what's called a photorealistic style by some, although true photorealism really is somewhat more and somewhat different.

Ran it through a 20x30 map last night and definitely started seeing performance hangups at that size.

Uh ... 20 x 30 what?

Servus,

[OWM]

It's clear that installing in Program Files (x86) does not define an app as being 32-bit. I have figured out what in my installation caused limited memory access. The process might give you some useful information. But maybe not, too, because I use protective software on our computers that probably isn't on most other users' machines.

1) I did not install the demo version as an administrator. I ordinarily do that when I install something, but I simply forget the step when installing the demo. I realized that right away, but since the demo seemed to run, I thought, Okay.

2) I used monitoring software to check performance. I opened the OWM demo and began piling 3rd party PNG symbols, each with a size of >100 MB, into the test map. Every time the memory monitor showed it was nearing 4 GB capacity, OWM crashed with a freeze. The monitor showed no noticeable change within the upper 60 GB of memory. There were no error messages. The program simply became inactive and the Windows 10 Pro task manager reported that OWM was not responding. I killed the dead session with the task manager.

3) The combination of the Program Files (x86) installation with the crashes at <4 GB memory usage led me to believe that I'm dealing with a 32-but app. I did no additional checking to see whether I was running on a 32- or 64-bit level.

4) Last night, I uninstalled the demo, manually checked for registry entries, erased those that were there, rebooted and installed the demo again, this time running the installation as an administrator. The issues described above no longer were there.

Conclusion: It probably is good to always run the OWM installation as an administrator. Others may not have problems with not doing so, but if such issues are going to occur, running installation as an administrator might prevent them.

Servus,

Thank you for the feedback! OWM shouldn't need to be installed as an admin, but it could be an issue if you are logged in as a domain user rather than a local user. We are towards the end of regression testing for our next release, so we'll take the chance to do extra testing of the installer with different user scenarios.

Thank you!