[CWBP2] Question Regarding Ownership

[Azélor]

I'm fine with that.
Maybe a vote is in order? The timing seems pretty bad since there is not a lot of activity around here.

[Azélor]

Decisions concerning general aspects of the material is the privilege of the Council members. Including: legal matters, the license, general direction of the project, approval of commercial projects...

Council : To become a council member, people need to submit at least one contribution and they need to sign in on a list (http://www.cartographersguild.com/co...ght-board.html)
- The site administrators of the Cartographer's Guild are also part of the Council since they are maintaining this space.
- In extraordinary circumstances Council members can be denied of their privileges if 2/3 of the Council members vote against them. (but we can't get them rid of their rights on their personal contributions)
- It is possible to amend the license with the support of 2/3 of the Council members.
- The Council members take decisions by voting. The vote is made public to ensure that only Council members votes are counted.
- Votes concerning legal matters should last a full month to let the active Council members sufficient time to vote. A normal vote is won with 50%+1 of the votes.


*Votes concerning non legal matters such as the description of different world elements and general opinion are open to every member of the Guild. The vote can be held public or in secret. The voting period should be around 3 or 4 days. Usually, a simple majority is required to win.


-Contributors of the project can use, modify and publish material that they own including for commercial purposes. If they do publish, they just need to inform the community.
-Contributors can also publish content that they don't own if they manage to get the approval of the other author(s).
-Everyone can use, modify the material of the project for personal or artistic purposes. They can share their derivative work as long as they have the approval of the original author. But they cannot use the content for commercial purposes.

The material used in the project should respect copyrights. You can't have material that is non commercial unless you have the approval of the author to do so.

Once something enters the project, either an image or a full-fledged idea, it become part of the project. If the content is, for some reason rejected, it can't be used in the project or any derivative work on it without the consent of the author.
Material can be taken out but it need the approval of all contributors.

- To publish a project: the first step is to submit the project to the community. Even if the person is publishing her own work, the community need to be informed. In that case, it's just a formality. When the project is bigger and include more than one author, a vote is usually required. After the project is submitted, the concerned authors will need to express their approval or disapproval of the project. There are no time limit for the authors the express themselves, refusal or simply a lack of answer means he can't publish it or need to publish only the content to which the authors agreed.

[Falconius]

All project materials are to remain on this site other than those used for personal purposes (ie to print for a game you are running etc.).

The "community" is defined by the contributors to the CWBP 2 project (this also implies the site administrators since they are maintaining this space).

I would say that we need to make a distinction regarding personal works contributes to the project. For instance do people get the copyright over the material they contribute? They should I think up and till it is finished and becomes part of the project officially. So for instance WIP's belong to the person doing it, finished maps and materials (as determined by their creator) belong to the project. Materials based on the project though have to respect the copyright of the CWBP 2 project and thus cannot be used for commercial purposes without the say so of the community. (so for instance if you make a map, it remains restricted to your personal use as it uses coastlines, features etc based on CWBP 2 work previously completed).

Instead of community I still think we should use a copyright board, where the membership is strictly voluntary and all that is required is that one has contributed a finished product to the project and wants to be part of the job, and that they have maintain a presence on the sight within six months (ie if they are inactive (haven't logged in) for more than six months they loose their spot on the copyright board until they come back and volunteer again). This allows people to not be involved with this legal stuff if they don't want to or to be a part if they do want to and ensures that decisions will get made in a relatively timely manner rather than waiting indefinitely long for an absolute majority of everyone who has contributed.

Without approval of the community no one can can modify or use this material off site other than for their own personal purposes

[Azélor]

I would say that we need to make a distinction regarding personal works contributes to the project. For instance do people get the copyright over the material they contribute? They should I think up and till it is finished and becomes part of the project officially. So for instance WIP's belong to the person doing it, finished maps and materials (as determined by their creator) belong to the project. Materials based on the project though have to respect the copyright of the CWBP 2 project and thus cannot be used for commercial purposes without the say so of the community. (so for instance if you make a map, it remains restricted to your personal use as it uses coastlines, features etc based on CWBP 2 work previously completed).

I think it's complicated to give copyright to only one person since they are always basing their work on something else or taking ideas from someone else. Everything is tied up. Saying that something belongs to someone is easier for maps maybe but could become trickier with other things such as world descriptions. One description could include several authors and if you incorporates the rights only when it's done, it could take a while to have these rights into the project. When do you consider a country's description finished, there is always something to add.

So my point is that it's really hard to get the personal copyright over the material inside the project. But if it's possible, it should have a license similar to the project to allow other members of the project to use this material.

Another point is that, all the material used such as brushes and textures should allow commercial purposes? It make things easier if we or someone in the project decide to publish.

Instead of community I still think we should use a copyright board, where the membership is strictly voluntary and all that is required is that one has contributed a finished product to the project and wants to be part of the job, and that they have maintain a presence on the sight within six months (ie if they are inactive (haven't logged in) for more than six months they loose their spot on the copyright board until they come back and volunteer again). This allows people to not be involved with this legal stuff if they don't want to or to be a part if they do want to and ensures that decisions will get made in a relatively timely manner rather than waiting indefinitely long for an absolute majority of everyone who has contributed.

it's not enough to participate, members also need to sign in a thread. They need to be approved on the list before they can vote. If it's what you mean, it make sense to me.

I don't think that we need to expel inactive members. Inactive or active, if people don't vote, it's all the same.

[Falconius]

I think it's complicated to give copyright to only one person since they are always basing their work on something else or taking ideas from someone else. Everything is tied up. Saying that something belongs to someone is easier for maps maybe but could become trickier with other things such as world descriptions. One description could include several authors and if you incorporates the rights only when it's done, it could take a while to have these rights into the project. When do you consider a country's description finished, there is always something to add.

So my point is that it's really hard to get the personal copyright over the material inside the project. But if it's possible, it should have a license similar to the project to allow other members of the project to use this material.

Yeah it's extremely difficult. My worry is just that it will limit peoples participation if they feel that their material is no longer "theirs" simply by virtue of it being part of the CWBP 2. I'd like to solve this issue somehow but am not sure how.

Another point is that, all the material used such as brushes and textures should allow commercial purposes? It make things easier if we or someone in the project decide to publish.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The CWBP 2 is not going to own any brushes or other building materials. However it maintains the right to use any materials used in it's projects fully. This means that it will be licensed to use maps with brushes or fonts for whatever purposes it wishes (publishing the maps etc.). This also means people should try and use fonts or brushes that are licence free or completely open license or it means they have to list the owners of the font or brushes so we know what we can publish or not or who we can get permission from (should the question ever arrive, it seems unlikely to me). Really, not being an illustrator I'm really not up to speed on all this stuff, but rather just outlining my thoughts on the matter.

it's not enough to participate, members also need to sign in a thread. They need to be approved on the list before they can vote. If it's what you mean, it make sense to me.

I don't think that we need to expel inactive members. Inactive or active, if people don't vote, it's all the same.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. We start a thread called CWBP 2 Copyright Members or something and if people want to be part of it they go there and post a reply signing up as a volunteer. But there is also the caveat to be eligible to join the Copyright Membership that they have contributed something to the project already, like a map or whatever (ie they have something vested in the project).

For the vote yeah your right we could just count the total votes after a certain time period (say a month) and that's the total used no whining about it after the fact. Even if its only one or two.

As distasteful as this subject is and despite the fact that I doubt it will actually come into play that much, you are right, it is important to resolve pretty soon.

[Azélor]

What I meant was that we can't use material that is non commercial. Using NC material might cause problems later. I don't know how much this will be limiting the possibilities.

Some will say yes if we ask them, other (corporation) are not so nice but I guess we need to make a thread about them. But we will deal with this case by case.

[Azélor]

do people get the copyright over the material they contribute?

Good question: while it is feasible for a map since the WIP and Finished steps are clearly defined, I don't see the appeal to do it. There is a large possibility that the person used content of the project to do the map. There is not much to pull out without infringing the copyrights. I would say that it's better to not allow it but maybe other thinks otherwise.


and another thing
People outside the project should be able to participate too. Voting for stuff unrelated to the copyright but I'm not sure how to put it in words.

I updated the other post #42 (good number)

[Falconius]

do people get the copyright over the material they contribute?

Good question: while it is feasible for a map since the WIP and Finished steps are clearly defined, I don't see the appeal to do it. There is a large possibility that the person used content of the project to do the map. There is not much to pull out without infringing the copyrights. I would say that it's better to not allow it but maybe other thinks otherwise.

We can just run it that way at the beginning and figure it out later if it ever comes up. Oooor... I don't see an alternative actually. In order to protect the work people put into the project we have to protect the project which means peoples work becomes part of the project and is not 'really' their own any more.

and another thing
People outside the project should be able to participate too. Voting for stuff unrelated to the copyright but I'm not sure how to put it in words.

The Copyright Board would deal strictly with the legal stuff and nothing else. Participation and all other project concerns would remain completely open to the community here. Not sure if this is what you meant or not.

I updated the other post #42 (good number)

Hehe, indeed.

[Azélor]

We can just run it that way at the beginning and figure it out later if it ever comes up. Oooor... I don't see an alternative actually. In order to protect the work people put into the project we have to protect the project which means peoples work becomes part of the project and is not 'really' their own any more.

Yes it's possible to modify it afterward.

The Copyright Board would deal strictly with the legal stuff and nothing else. Participation and all other project concerns would remain completely open to the community here. Not sure if this is what you meant or not.

I'm not sure. Do you mean the people registered as contributers are part of the Copyright board? That's how I understand it, so everyone is allowed to vote concerning non legal stuff. They are allowed now that I just modified the other post, again.


and, do we need to vote on this? I know it's important but I don't think most people are interested by this gibberish. I did try to include opinions submitted by other members over time, so we should please most people with it.

[Falconius]

I'm not sure. Do you mean the people registered as contributors are part of the Copyright board? That's how I understand it, so everyone is allowed to vote concerning non legal stuff. They are allowed now that I just modified the other post, again.

People who are part of the copyright board are CWBP 2 contributors who have signed up in a thread to volunteer for the Copyright Board. So not all CWBP 2 contributors are part of the board (though they could be if they signed up). Contributors in this sense are any people who have put work into developing the project, whether it be mapping a plot or developing information for a plot or assisting in the construction of the world map etc. So, to reiterate a Copyright Board member is a Contributor and also a signee on the Copyright Board thread.

and, do we need to vote on this? I know it's important but I don't think most people are interested by this gibberish. I did try to include opinions submitted by other members over time, so we should please most people with it.

I think were there any objections to the direction we are headed they would've popped up by now. In this case I think we can take silence as an assent. Truthfully I'm not too interested in this gibberish either, but one doesn't always get to avoid the bull**** when working on a farm.