OMG .... WOTC does it again

[Badger]

We started our 4E campaign last night...we managed to play 2 encounters from Keep on the Shadowfell, and the basic reaction from my players was: "Holy hell, these are some tough kobolds!"

2nd encounter saw the paladin unconscious with the cleric scrambling to revive her while avoiding the shifty kobolds.

Game went very smooth though...had some issues with Marked targets and remembering what modifiers applied and when they ended...Shifting and OA's gave us a little bit of grief too, but not too bad...

As a GM I enjoyed it...50% of my players are pretty sure they like it...the other 50% are still on the fence, but not turned off yet.

Shifting is basicaly your standard 5' move from 3.5 save for the difficult terrain addon... course kobolds get extra shift so they can be dangerous ... I ran the adventure from the back of the DMG the first game a few weeks ago.... they are dangerous...

I refuse to call them Opportunity Attacks... that's just STUPID ... and it trips me up everytime I'm reading it out loud.!!!! to me its awkward to say and tho I could just say O A .... I prefer the long hand Attack of Opportunity....

For marked targets... get some poker chips (these worked for us) i even took a marker and put the bonus on it ... and they can move thier chip under the mini or next to it (works with six sided dice as well... I have little mini mini mini sixxer's I use to place on a mini base to remind me of bonuses and what not)

that's what worked for us, thought i'd share

[NeonKnight]

Yep, people were cursing them shifty kobolds in my game on Saturday night too. They move adjacent to one and IT SHIFTED AWAY. so, now they need to move closer. Made it tough for the fighter to get cleaves

As to the comment that a 1st level Kobold has more HP than the paladin, I actually like that. An example is this:

A Party of 5 PCs can dish out around 8 points of damage each (averaged across the board based on Powers & Weapons), and if they concentrate this damage on one enemy that is 40 damage, or enough to take out one per round of combat, or 5 rounds of combat for a Solo Monster (averaging 200 HP). Again, this assumes every attack hits.

That same monster can only attack ONE PC at a time, and will deal often less damage per attack.

So, the High HP kobolds means a battle truly feels like a threat no matter what the level.

Additionaly, as someone mentioned before the game is scaled so a PC needs around a 8-12 to succeed at something. Look at a PC attacking a similar critter with a BASIC attack. They will have an attack that is made at 1/2 Level, + Abililty + Class + Proficiency + Feat + Enhancement (Magic) + Misc. Usually this would mean something like:

1st Level Ftr with 16 Strength with Longsword:
0 + 3 (Str) + 1 (ftr 1-handed weapon talent) + 3 (Prof Longsword) = +7 attack.

His foe's AC is calculated:

10 + 1/2 level + Armor* + Ability* + Shield + Class + Feat + Enhancement + Misc

* Heavy Armors do not allow for Ability bonuses

So, the above figther attacking a 1st level foe in Plate Armor with a large shield would be:

10 + 0 + 8 + 2 for an AC 20

So the fighter needs to roll a 13 to hit this buffed opponent.

The Beauty of the system becomes apparent when you look at the same people over level.

Lets assume the fighter is now level 10, and as he increased in level, he bumed his strength from a 16 to an 18. Nothing else has changed for him, No Magic or additional abilites to boost his attack. He is now:

5 (1/2 level) + 4 (Str) + 1 (ftr 1-handed weapon talent) + 3 (Prof Longsword) = +13 attack.

His same opponenet is now also level 10, and has no Magic armor and is still equipmed with Plate & Large Shield, so he is now:

10 + 5 (1/2 level) + 8 + 2 for an AC 25

The fighter now needs a 12 or better to hit. He has imporved his chances by +1.

As can be seen, as the PCs go up in level improving their attacks, the defense go up at pretty much the same rate allowing for combat to scale appropriately. High level PCs are not missing only on a 1, monsters are not slaughtering PCs because their Attacks are higher than a PCs AC can be.

I like it.


A lot!

[Robbie]

Yeah Wizards are quite awesome...when the party was down and out in encounter 2 The ambush...the wizard fired a magic missile at the wyrmpriest and dropped him, then fey stepped from one side of the combat to the other, and then spent her action point and thunderwaved the nearest kobold and knocked it back 2 squares, plus doing damage...she was BEAMING! If you can picture that happening in a 6 second span of time:

*zot* *kobold priest falls dead* *wizard disappears* *reappears 25' across the battlefield* *BOOM* *kobold goes flying backward into the rough terrain* *Wizard does football style goal dance*

[jfrazierjr]

"Holy hell, these are some tough kobolds!"

"What do you want from me? You can daily power and get 2-20 HP damage plus your strength at first level if you picked your powers right."

Joe

[Badger]

I like the fact that kobolds, goblins and such at an encounter level of 1 aren't typically going to just fall down dead because the nearest PC just hit it with a dagger for 3-5 damage...

I believe this was probably one of the mistakes that contributed to the TPK, the players of course .. used to old edition standards and seeing goblins they plowed into three goblins and with two wolves thinking oh ... fairly simple warm-up battle... this will be done in 6-24 seconds ... alas... this was to be a learning experience instead...

[someguy]

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/gametable

They just can't leave anything alone.. now they have to come in and try to corner every single part of the market...



This really doesn't make me happy for some reason ... maybe its just me.. maybe its that last proverbial straw...maybe... just maybe... WoTC is the DEVIL....

bleh

No its not you, they are. 4.0 is junk. They made a system that is completely repugnant to this Role-Player.

[Tancread]

No its not you, they are. 4.0 is junk. They made a system that is completely repugnant to the Role-Player.

I guess it is a matter of taste, I am an old school roleplayer, started in 1976 and the fourth edition is what has brought me back to D&D after a looong break. The rules are the best written D&D I have ever read. They still aren't great, I spend a lot of time trying to find where things are hidden, but they are much better than the white box or the first AD&D books. As for roleplaying I think that goes down to the DM and the players. The rules are just a way of keeping things organized, it is all down the ref and the players to tell their stories.

I have played three sessions of 4ed D&D and they have all been fine. There is a bit of miniatures game feel to the combat, but it moves quickly and is fun for everyone even at level one. A real achievement in my view. I certainly had more fun than the one session I tried of 3ed. The players in the 3ed game I was in were all about the rules, multi-classed Ninja/Woodchuck/Paladins with psionics that were mowing down all the poor DM could throw at them. If that is what people are missing from 3ed I can give it a miss. As I said, 4ed isn't perfect, the fact that they won't even sell you the bloody toy soldiers unless you buy them in random boxes is madness and even the new rules aren't easy for kids to pick up, but I am enjoying it and would describe our group of old fogies as pretty role play heavy.

As far as the electronic tools they seem to be vaporware so far, I think they got into a deeper pool than they thought they were getting into and are now trying to figure out what promises they can actually deliver on. I will happily give it a look when it comes out but I expect I will be puttering away at my maps just as I did in the seventies, only with much more expensive electronic markers than the old colored pens I used then.

[someguy]

I guess it is a matter of taste...

My big problem is that you made the characters even more cookie cutter. This fighter is just like that fighter over there. I hate cookie cutter game.

There is a bit of miniatures game feel to the combat, but it moves quickly and is fun for everyone even at level one. A real achievement in my view.

I took part in the World Wide Gameday WotC thew back in June. It felt like they made an MMO for the table top to me. And to make matters worse, they put the RPGA rules in the PHB.

I certainly had more fun than the one session I tried of 3ed. The players in the 3ed game I was in were all about the rules, multi-classed Ninja / woodchuck / Paladins with psionics that were mowing down all the poor DM could throw at them.

That's the GM's fault for letting munchkins run wild on him. I don't invite rules lawyers, munchkins, or hack masters back to my game table, they just aren't my cup of tea.

I'm there to have fun and players like tht rob the game if it.

Whats missing in 4th isn't whats missed, its what they added. All those shades of gray. PC Demons and Dragons? Giving a wild card ability to any race other than Human? What was WotC thinking?

As far as the electronic tools they seem to be vaporware so far, I think they got into a deeper pool than they thought they were getting into and are now trying to figure out what promises they can actually deliver on. I will happily give it a look when it comes out, but I expect I will be puttering away at my maps just as I did in the seventies; only with much more expensive electronic markers than the old colored pens I used then.

I take everything WotC says with a grain of salt. They have a bad habit of making promises they can't keep. Like the $19.95 game books promise they only upheld for a think a year.

Then there was e-tools.

[The Cartographist]

someguy - I own the core books...haven't played yet, but I've done a lot of reading. For the most part, all things considered, I like the new game.

Anyway, some things you said confuse me:

"...made the characters even more cookie cutter..." and "...its what they added. All those shades of gray."

I see those two statements as diametrically opposed. I mean, how can one complain of cookie-cutterishness and then turn around and complain of too many shades of gray?

Now, you are COMPLETELY entitled to believe that "4.0 is junk." I am just curious to know why...

[GlennZilla]

I find that the selection powers in a class increases the variety of characters. It's easy to grab a few illusions or several (When we get several) to control the type of wizard the character becomes. There's no need to multiclass into another caster class as it's already available as a progression of powers.

The streamlined rules make the game WAY faster at our table. It's also easier for me to prep each game as well as improvise at the table. This makes our gaming much more enjoyable. Ultimately that's all I wanted.