OMG .... WOTC does it again

[NeonKnight]

For me as a DM, it's all about the scaling. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter what level you are, to succeed you need to roll between an 8-13. Because AC scales just as attack bonuses everything keeps even.

Further because of this in my group if only 3 of the 6 players how up, I can scale the encounter appropriately no matter the level and ensure they still have a challenging fight that is neither a push oer, or in danger of killing them outright.

I also understand easily how to scale a monster by creating one out of thin air so to speak, by determining role, quickly calculating HP, AC and attack powers and a special power. Very easy once you read the tables and create a few on the fly.

SO, I say thank you WotC.

Oh, and not to name drop here, but because I have actually sat down at breakfast or lunch with a lot of the WotC guys from Jonathan Sweet and Monte Cooke through to Andy Collins and company, I know these are guys who want to do what they can to make this a GOOD GAME. It's not just a business for them, but it IS their hobby as well.

[jfrazierjr]

I find that the selection powers in a class increases the variety of characters. It's easy to grab a few illusions or several (When we get several) to control the type of wizard the character becomes. There's no need to multiclass into another caster class as it's already available as a progression of powers.

The streamlined rules make the game WAY faster at our table. It's also easier for me to prep each game as well as improvise at the table. This makes our gaming much more enjoyable. Ultimately that's all I wanted.

I agree 100%! It is way faster and a lot more streamlined. For the most part, combat should be resolved in half the time or less.

For those who think it's all about making the game into more of a MMO, and less of a roleplaying game, I have to say I have never learned how to act or roleplay from a book. My thought is that you learn how to act/roleplaying from ACTING and there is no book that will really make you do that. The point of any game is to give you the mechanics, it is still up to the players and GM to infuse life into the game. A group of good roleplayers can play almost any game and have fun. For example, keeping track of various durations for spells and effects may have been a bit more realistic, but DAMN it slowed things down WAY to much and I am glad to have it gone and am surprised someone (ie, me) did not think about doing this before. Likewise, the stat blocks in older versions was just tons of information to keep track of. Adding monster levels was a pain.

Honestly, I was VERY reserved about 4E(even after getting and reading parts of the books), but after playing it a few times, I feel that it is now 100 times better than previous editions.

[someguy]

...some things you said confuse me:

"...made the characters even more cookie cutter..." and "...its what they added. All those shades of gray."

I see those two statements as diametrically opposed. I mean, how can one complain of cookie-cutterishness...

System wise, how many ways can you build a class? If its less then 10 its cookie cutter. With out varying the race, I found only three or four ways under the new system. Race doesn't count because you will have those tricks no mater what class you take.

I had the PHB for several weeks, but it was just to limiting in character build.
the chances of having an identical character at a small game day is vastly higher with this system.

and then turn around and complain of too many shades of gray?

As for shades of gray.

My son at the game day bought the PHB, after thumbing though it he returned it. His reason was that he wasn't going to play a game where a demon what a standard race.

Where have all the hero's gone? They have been replaced with demons!

In all the history of D&D you have never had a Demon in the PHB, Let alone as a PC race. Its bad enough that they were an option in 3rd, but now to legitimize the morally depraved in the PHB?

No, the system is too cookie cutter, and the setting is morally depraved.

This is the last bit of time I will waist on this subject.

[Tancread]

For my kids game I just said 'no tieflings or demonic warlocks'. In my game for grown ups I am actually much tighter, only humans allowed, at least at the start and no warlocks of any type as it is in a quasi-historical setting. The DM has always had control over the setting and tone of the game. Anyway, if you don't like, you don't like it and there is nothing wrong with that regardless, plenty of other options out there.

As an amusing side note, while I was buying some minis for the game I got lectured by an eighteen year old at the store who told me that I didn't understand the game's 'inner core' and that is why I liked 4th ed. I pointed out that by the time he was born I had already been playing on and off for fourteen years. He was gracious enough to admit that I had 'some' background knowledge at that point.

Play what you enjoy and enjoy what you play!

[Midgardsormr]

I hope that isn't really your final word because I wanted to talk about your "morally depraved" comment briefly. Yes, the tiefling race is descended from demons, but there is a point made that many of them make an effort to be more and better than their demon blood tempts them to be. In my opinion, that opens the door for really exploring what it means to choose righteousness and good. The tiefling may be tempted by a darker nature, but because the game specifically emphasises heroism and discourages evil PCs, I think that the triumph over not only the external evil of monsters vanquished but also the internal evil of the tiefling's heritage is a very natural way to play things.

I am a bit more leery of the warlock class, but there's plenty of room there, also, for stories of heroism and redemption. I am a poster on the Christian Gamers' Guild listserv, and we've discussed these same topics at pretty great length. Obviously, as Christian roleplayers we are very aware of moral issues in games, D&D in particular. The conclusion I came away from those conversations with was that the presence of the tiefling and warlock in the PHB actually increases the possible moral depth in the game.

And concerning the cookie-cutter bit, I tend to agree, and that's going to be one of the first things I houserule. I don't want every single rogue in my game to wield a dagger just because of an essentially arbitrary rule that makes using anything else sub-optimal. Even a player who doesn't generally min-max (me) has a hard time justifying not only giving up that bonus but also wasting a feat in order to use, say, a quarterstaff.

[GlennZilla]

Yes, the tiefling race is descended from demons, but there is a point made that many of them make an effort to be more and better than their demon blood tempts them to be. In my opinion, that opens the door for really exploring what it means to choose righteousness and good.

I concur. The Tiefling player in my group is exploring just how the grandson of "the debil" can manage his own redemption. He's taking the route of a bad guy trying to become good. It's interesting from a role playing standpoint, and it wouldn't have happened with a Gnome. And a Half Orc probably wouldn't have cared.

I am a bit more leery of the warlock class, but there's plenty of room there, also, for stories of heroism and redemption. I am a poster on the Christian Gamers' Guild listserv, and we've discussed these same topics at pretty great length. Obviously, as Christian roleplayers we are very aware of moral issues in games, D&D in particular. The conclusion I came away from those conversations with was that the presence of the tiefling and warlock in the PHB actually increases the possible moral depth in the game.

I chopped up your post so that I could confess to something. I've always raised an eyebrow at your sig line and the link to Christian-Gamers-Guild.org. Having lost the first set of my D&D books to honest to goodness book burnings I've always been a little less than open about my hobby. Comments that the inclusion of a demon-looking race sullies the game and the morality of the people playing it just remind me of those days.

Owning a store and having the, "Your kid is not learning magic or demonology at my store." discussions made me more gunshy about religion and gaming. For the record I made almost three times as much money on Pokemon cards than D&D books. So by all logic the kids should be shoving their pets into plastic balls and forcing them to fight before they begin to worship Orcus.

With the release of 4th ed I began to dread the confrontation that would come when some fundamentalist saw me carrying my 2 year old and a DMG out of the bookstore. Instead the only people I hear decrying it are online safely anonymous and distant. Even here in the middle of the bible belt where people get into fistfights over the mention of gay marriage, no one has batted an eye when I read my Monster Manual on lunch breaks.

We've come a long way to realizing that the use of certian imagery to portray the antagonist as evil does not idolize the imagery. But I still have a copy of the Jack Chick tract on D&D my parents gave me as a reminder.

And concerning the cookie-cutter bit, I tend to agree, and that's going to be one of the first things I houserule. I don't want every single rogue in my game to wield a dagger just because of an essentially arbitrary rule that makes using anything else sub-optimal. Even a player who doesn't generally min-max (me) has a hard time justifying not only giving up that bonus but also wasting a feat in order to use, say, a quarterstaff.

I fully expect that future release will expand the builds and options for each class instead of swamping us with new classes. I think that tossing out a game system because they couldn't provide enough variety is a merely a justification to grouse over some imagined slight.

[Midgardsormr]

I chopped up your post so that I could confess to something. I've always raised an eyebrow at your sig line and the link to Christian-Gamers-Guild.org. Having lost the first set of my D&D books to honest to goodness book burnings I've always been a little less than open about my hobby.
<snip>
safely anonymous and distant. Even here in the middle of the bible belt where people get into fistfights over the mention of gay marriage, no one has batted an eye when I read my Monster Manual on lunch breaks.

We've come a long way to realizing that the use of certian imagery to portray the antagonist as evil does not idolize the imagery. But I still have a copy of the Jack Chick tract on D&D my parents gave me as a reminder.

Yes, the venerable Dark Dungeons tract. I've gotta admit that I downplay my love of fantasy and gaming at my own church. It's amazing how hurtful some of those otherwise loving, caring people can be. That's why I spend a lot of time at those other communities I've mentioned. It's nice to be able to talk about my hobby without having to try to justify it for an hour.

I fully expect that future release will expand the builds and options for each class instead of swamping us with new classes. I think that tossing out a game system because they couldn't provide enough variety is a merely a justification to grouse over some imagined slight.

I do hope so. I probably won't buy any of it, though. I've already spent quite enough on this particular game. I've never really bought into the subscription model that Wizards peddles. I prefer to buy a game once, or maybe twice if it's as enjoyable as Settlers of Catan. So maybe I'll pick up the second PHB.

[loogie]

the dnd game table hasn't even made me think twice about using maptool... its "snazzy" 3d graphics, which are really only the objects, not even the tiles, only make map building more difficult for the DM, having to find (and in WoTC's case, BUY...) more 3d objects, monsters and tokens for use in the game. "Creating" your character is going to be little more then dressup, changing colours, adding some base equipment you can toggle... nothing special, and no way to truely customize.

maptool is an amazing tool, with amazing features... and its free. Trevor (the main dev) gets it... DM's need a tool that can help them share their vision of a campaign to the players, without limiting them, or bogging them down with visuals that will cause more problems then solutions. Maptool is moving into the a new version as well in the near future, and is going to begin some very big changes, to solve some of the initial issues overlooked by the original game design... he's also always looking at his 3d options... but i've talked to him extensively, and in all honesty... a true 3d system (not this flat tile, 3d token crap WoTC's has) adds to much detail to make it worthwhile for a GM... and 3d tokens limits GM's and PC's alike from using any picture or any image they can find (or draw) as their own character... i don't know bout anyone else... but i'm not willing to pay for a game which has less features, with its only benefit to be some 3d tokens i have to pay extra for.

that and i can't stand the dnd system.

[RPMiller]

the dnd game table hasn't even made me think twice about using maptool... its "snazzy" 3d graphics, which are really only the objects, not even the tiles, only make map building more difficult for the DM, having to find (and in WoTC's case, BUY...) more 3d objects, monsters and tokens for use in the game. "Creating" your character is going to be little more then dressup, changing colours, adding some base equipment you can toggle... nothing special, and no way to truely customize.

maptool is an amazing tool, with amazing features... and its free. Trevor (the main dev) gets it... DM's need a tool that can help them share their vision of a campaign to the players, without limiting them, or bogging them down with visuals that will cause more problems then solutions. Maptool is moving into the a new version as well in the near future, and is going to begin some very big changes, to solve some of the initial issues overlooked by the original game design... he's also always looking at his 3d options... but i've talked to him extensively, and in all honesty... a true 3d system (not this flat tile, 3d token crap WoTC's has) adds to much detail to make it worthwhile for a GM... and 3d tokens limits GM's and PC's alike from using any picture or any image they can find (or draw) as their own character... i don't know bout anyone else... but i'm not willing to pay for a game which has less features, with its only benefit to be some 3d tokens i have to pay extra for.

that and i can't stand the dnd system.

*Stands up on chair and begins the slow clap shaking his head at how right the words are*

Amen brother, amen!! To every point!! Praise the developers!!



This latest build (b40) may have just knocked the ball out of the park regarding features. It is absolutely gorgeous and now has the initiative panel built in and some really awesome token specific macros.

[loogie]

i LOVE coming home from the weekend to a new build... and one of this caliber... SWEEEET!