CWBP 2 : Era and Technology

[Scoopz]

Sure, cannons came a lot earlier than guns anyhow. In fact Ii'm having so much fun drawing little spearmen and whatnot, that I don't really need or care for guns or whatever.

... I like cannons though!

EDIT:

Have some more concept art:

infantry concept 2.png

[Azélor]

Ok well, maybe we need to trace a hard line whether or not guns have been invented even simple ones?

Regarding history, keep in mind that:

-People at that time may not realize yet that guns are going to change warfare and also some aspect of society (No more armor, stoned wall castle and walled cities become less important) We do because it happened in the past that's why it's so obvious.
-Changes usually take time and do not happen on a dime. For example, 1492 did not change the world much as 1453. In 1453 the political world changed significantly, thus marking the beginning of the Renaissance but that's more like an exception. 1750 is often regarded as the beginning of the industrial revolution but factories and railroads only became important around 1820-1830 in Europe.

[Scoopz]

Alright I suggest this technology level in terms of land weapons/warfare:

Melee weapons: everything from warhammers, greatswords, and halberds, to hand-axes, shortswords, and pikes/spears.

Missile weapons: Mostly Bows, Longbows, Shortbows, etc. usage of crossbows is there, it happens. Early Siege Cannons, maybe. Slings? I don't know, that's too hellenic for me, but I'll support their inclusion. Throwing weapons, I.E. javelins, axes, etc. pretty prevalent.

Cavalry: I would say that the invention of shock cavalry has taken place, but heavy cav is really only prevalent in wars fought between major realms. Horsemen are readily available, and almost everyone has access to light cavalry or mounted infantry in some way.

EDIT: and the rest I just agree with Falconius' original suggestion.

[Jalyha]

yeap. my point, though, is ... even if we don't know the world is changing, it changes faster than we think.

I'd like to explain my thought process, just so, if people don't understand where I'm coming from, at least you'll see the way I got there.


Using Azelor examples as a start:

1492-1453 = 61 years. A single lifetime.

1750-1820 = 70 years. Your dad could have seen the invention of the "irrelevant" new technologies.

60 years ago, children in America were being abused at school because of their skin color, and almost no one cared.

When I was a kid there was no such thing as internet, and less than 20 years ago, cell phones looked like a brick.

Change happens rapidly.

My point was that whatever technology we give our world, by the time the children are grown, it will be a totally different world.



I like to work with several generations in a world, so when I think about what the actual MAXIMUM level of tech I want to deal with (and those arquebus are probably that outer limit for me, personally) and then I go back, at least 200 years, and say... "Let's START here, so we can have a nice long trip to THERE."

I'm not as firm on it as I would be with my own personal world, by the thought process is still the same


So, while I'd prefer no gunpowder at all (cause it can spiral quickly) I'm not completely against low-tech, large, inefficient guns like cannons.. But cannons, in a few generations, will probably be a lot more.

And the HIGHER the level of tech you start with, the FASTER it advances.

It's hard for people who've only used wood and stone to learn to work with metal.

It's less difficult for people who've worked with bronze to learn to work with iron.

From there, once they are aware of how useful it is, they quickly (relatively) learn to work with steel.

With gunpowder... it starts off as something you just light on fire. Then someone puts it in tubes. That takes ages... why would they do that? Then cannons, cause someone says "this could be a great weapon!" Then relatively quickly, smaller guns, then better guns, and better guns, and the next thing you know, a sniper's killed all the wizards, and you're fighting battles with tanks instead of horses. Because the more tech you have, the more you can conceive of.

And yes, that takes many generations... or did, on earth. Maybe not exactly as long on another planet. maybe longer. but faster than I like.


Then again. ... I usully start my worlds with cavemen, and go from there, so I'm probably a lot slower than everyone else here.



EDIT: Oh, my preferences... Throwing weapons, spears, swords, whips made out of scorpion tails, halberds etc... shortbows, i guess longbows, maybe even some crossbows.... I don't really like cannons, but I wouldn't oppose them as a new-ish thing

[Falconius]

Summarizing our progress so far...

Alright taking into account the thread progress I revised my original template trying to include the changes desired:

Art of war
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: Early Cannon and Fireworks
Calvary: Heavy, and on rare occasions other beasts

Heavy horse cav: yes but expensive to waste

Calvary dominates the battle field
Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)
Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, more expensive; x-bows. Expensive and rare; other more advanced kinetic weapons (repeaters etc.)
Magically assisted weapons: Yes
Warrior codes: Advanced (bushido, chivalry, warrior societies like the Knights of Malta etc.)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: G node compasses, no magnetic north compasses. Celestial navigation still possible obviously.
Chronometers: No, crude inaccurate mechanical clocks at best.
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 15th century sail technology, i.e. Caravels
Airships/airtravel:

No to airships in general, yes to limited (i.e. rare) magical conveyances and tending to range on the small size.

Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything. Rare.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses
Postal/carrier services: common for upper class.

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Scholarship level: 15th century?
Learning institutions (eg. universities): Yes.
Heraldry: Advanced, still important.
Observation equipment: Crude telescopes.

Industry
Power sources: Wind/water flow, magical

Cam driven processes common (trip hammers, felters etc.)

Lathes: Wood only
Metallurgy: Steel is "common"

Cast iron possible, though inaccurate
Bronze casting is fairly accurate
Bell/cannon casting unreliable but common enough

*Note 1: Note this list only indicates the functionality of the technology achieved, not necessarily the actual technology.
**Note 2: Any early technology is obviously included here, and these listed technologies only represent the most advanced they have reached in the most advanced nations, which, obviously, large portions of the world will not have reached. I mean more than half the world was still fighting with pointy sticks while Europe was busy running around with guns.
***Note 3: We can obviously artificially stagnate or halt to quick advancement and keep our world in the same stage as long as we wish, or not depending. Obviously we are going to develop it at one fixed time for now so no need to worry too much about consequences.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are any changes you'd like to see to this please bring them up for discussion. Especially since it's almost exclusively my list at this point, lacking any others to go on.

[Jalyha]

Summarizing our progress so far...

Alright taking into account the thread progress I revised my original template trying to include the changes desired:

Art of war
Guns/Canons/Gunpowder: Early Cannon and Fireworks
Calvary: Heavy, and on rare occasions other beasts

Heavy horse cav: yes but expensive to waste

Calvary dominates the battle field

I can live with it.

Armour: All the way up to 16th century plate (because that stuff is boss)

It is.

Hand weapons: All stuff until 15th 16th century
Missile weapons: Bows, more expensive; x-bows. Expensive and rare; other more advanced kinetic weapons (repeaters etc.)
Magically assisted weapons: Yes

Like it.

Warrior codes: Advanced (bushido, chivalry, warrior societies like the Knights of Malta etc.)

Navigation and travel:
Compasses: G node compasses, no magnetic north compasses. Celestial navigation still possible obviously.
Chronometers: No, crude inaccurate mechanical clocks at best.
Dominant propulsion: Sail
Alternate propulsion: Yes
Steam: No, to very minor experimental use in small enclaves.
"Boat" types: Up to 15th century sail technology, i.e. Caravels
Airships/airtravel:

No to airships in general, yes to limited (i.e. rare) magical conveyances and tending to range on the small size.

Flying creatures for travel/transport: Yes, anything. Rare.
Overland transport: Wagons, horses, etc. Possibly landships for special uses

I'd like to leave open the possibility of other world-specific species for overland travel?

Postal/carrier services: common for upper class.

Writing and learning
Printing press: No
Scholarship level: 15th century?
Learning institutions (eg. universities): Yes.
Heraldry: Advanced, still important.
Observation equipment: Crude telescopes.

I'm cool with all of that. I was thinking, though, of some sort of crude magical means of observation... not so much as scrying glasses/pools, as a more mental thing... maybe? What do people think of this?

Industry
Power sources: Wind/water flow, magical

Cam driven processes common (trip hammers, felters etc.)

Lathes: Wood only
Metallurgy: Steel is "common"

Cast iron possible, though inaccurate
Bronze casting is fairly accurate
Bell/cannon casting unreliable but common enough

I can deal with unreliable/common, but I'd prefer if not *all* the major nations had caught on to the cannon thing yet?

*Note 1: Note this list only indicates the functionality of the technology achieved, not necessarily the actual technology.
**Note 2: Any early technology is obviously included here, and these listed technologies only represent the most advanced they have reached in the most advanced nations, which, obviously, large portions of the world will not have reached. I mean more than half the world was still fighting with pointy sticks while Europe was busy running around with guns.
***Note 3: We can obviously artificially stagnate or halt to quick advancement and keep our world in the same stage as long as we wish, or not depending. Obviously we are going to develop it at one fixed time for now so no need to worry too much about consequences.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there are any changes you'd like to see to this please bring them up for discussion. Especially since it's almost exclusively my list at this point, lacking any others to go on.

I'm pretty cool with the list as is

[Scoopz]

I think, that's a pretty good base. The whole cannon thing we can continue to deliberate on, but as a whole I'd say that's pretty good. I have a couple of questions though,

1.) What's alternate propulsion? magical?

2.) While I see a lot of "up to 15th-16th century" stuff, I assume a lot of the world is at a tech level lower than that, is that right? Like, equipping the bulk of their militaries with... less heavy armor and weapons?

[Ghostman]

If we want to allow cannons, yet prevent smaller guns being invented and technology in general from advancing at too rapid a pace, then instead of gunpowder we could base it on steam cannons. Such weapons might be useful for besieging a castle, but difficult to deploy effectively in a field battle (time needed to set them up & to heat them up, the need for test shots to get the aim right, the smoke from the fire revealing their location, etc) and absolutely useless for fast-paced small-scale skirmish actions. It also seems like the principle would be impossible or at least very difficult to adapt for handheld guns.

[Jalyha]

That's GENIUS.

Guns like that would be practically impossible (although for some reason I'm thinking of those nerf cannon toys...)

But even if steam-guns were invented, eventually... it's new/different/might not be as bad

You haave all the best ideas D:

[Falconius]

I'm happy with steam cannons, maybe fire throwers too (why not)? Remember the list deals with technological equivalences, not the actual technologies that achieves this effect. Steam cannons seem like a good way to achieve this goal without having to deal with the development and consequences of gunpowder. Although there is nothing really stopping the eventual development of steam rifles like they have in Last Exile.

I think, that's a pretty good base. The whole cannon thing we can continue to deliberate on, but as a whole I'd say that's pretty good. I have a couple of questions though,

1.) What's alternate propulsion? magical?

2.) While I see a lot of "up to 15th-16th century" stuff, I assume a lot of the world is at a tech level lower than that, is that right? Like, equipping the bulk of their militaries with... less heavy armor and weapons?

1: Yes magic, or whatever else we can come up with that is cool, maybe things like magical solar sails (that somehow work on the surface of a planet) etc.

2: Yes precisely. This list only represents he pinnacles of technologies represented in the most advanced regions of the world, so a very small portion of it overall probably.

I'd like to leave open the possibility of other world-specific species for overland travel?

Yup ok.

I can deal with unreliable/common, but I'd prefer if not *all* the major nations had caught on to the cannon thing yet?

Only major nations in contact with that region really. Europe was light years ahead of pretty much the entire rest of the world for a very long time for instance.

I'm cool with all of that. I was thinking, though, of some sort of crude magical means of observation... not so much as scrying glasses/pools, as a more mental thing... maybe? What do people think of this?

To me this list really only represents the technological advancement in a more scientific sense. Personally I'd expect magic development to be significantly more advanced for "magical" type stuff (scrying pools, flying carpets etc.).