Howdy!

[Gildor]

I need maps to help visualize fantasy stories. While I have always loved maps, sadly, I'm am not much of a graphics artist. So, looking for a mixture of "automatic" map creation while still having the ability to customize certain areas of the map.

[ChickPea]

Hi Glidor, and welcome to the Guild.

If you don't want to create maps from scratch yourself, you might be better looking into Campaign Cartographer which comes with a range of symbols that you can insert (I don't use it but that's my understanding, anyway). There are a number of people in the forums who use CC, so if you've got questions about the software, I'm sure someone can help. Another possibility that may suit you is Inkcarnate.

I hope you can find what you need, but just ask if you've got more questions.

[Mouse]

I agree with ChickPea, and I was going to say as much if she hadn't said it first, but the suitability of a piece of software is always subject to how individual users get on with it.

CC3 is an extremely powerful mapping tool, and as with any extremely powerful app it has something of a learning curve. Once you've learned it, though, you can make a map along the lines you describe in a matter of minutes.

A series of demo videos by Joe Sweeny is here, and if you decide to just try the software there's a 14 day money back guarantee if it doesn't agree with your working style.

I hope that helps

[Gildor]

Hi Glidor, and welcome to the Guild.

If you don't want to create maps from scratch yourself, you might be better looking into Campaign Cartographer which comes with a range of symbols that you can insert (I don't use it but that's my understanding, anyway). There are a number of people in the forums who use CC, so if you've got questions about the software, I'm sure someone can help. Another possibility that may suit you is Inkcarnate.

I hope you can find what you need, but just ask if you've got more questions.

Thanks ChickPea. I am aware CC, but I thought I would explore some cheaper alternatives first, like Gimp. Not that I am averse to shelling out a few bucks to support good software, but I'd like to see the different options open to me before I take the plunge.

My main problem right now is learning the capabilities of the various options. Ideally I want to be able to, for example, say: OK, I want to start with a continent that is roughly rectangular,but narrower on the west side, and then let the S/W create that for me with fractal coastlines and bays and inlets and other typical geographical features. Then I'd say,wait, I want to carve a big chunk out of the east side for an inland sea, that is roughly circular and about a certain radius, then let the S/W handle the nitty gritty detailed work. Then I might say: OK this part of the cost is important,so I need to be able to edit it just so. Similarly with cities, I would say create a city with the palace up against the mountains and the town surrounding the walls. But, the town market is important to the story,so I need to be able to edit it exactly, while letting the S/W handle the rest of the town. Anyway, I hope that wasn't too confusing. Basically I want the S/W to be able to create areas automatically, but under some general constraints, but also be able to let me edit specific areas as needed. That may be too much to ask of the available S/W,but being an ignorant noob, I just don't know and thus have to specify my ideal,then start learning what's what.

[Gildor]

I agree with ChickPea, and I was going to say as much if she hadn't said it first, but the suitability of a piece of software is always subject to how individual users get on with it.

CC3 is an extremely powerful mapping tool, and as with any extremely powerful app it has something of a learning curve. Once you've learned it, though, you can make a map along the lines you describe in a matter of minutes.

A series of demo videos by Joe Sweeny is here, and if you decide to just try the software there's a 14 day money back guarantee if it doesn't agree with your working style.

I hope that helps

Thank you Mouse. I'll take a look at the videos you recommend. I am not so much afraid of a learning curve, as much as I want to make sure its the right thing before I invest my time. I am grateful for the recommendations from you and ChickPea, and I will keep them in mind as I explore my options.

[ChickPea]

Thanks ChickPea. I am aware CC, but I thought I would explore some cheaper alternatives first, like Gimp. Not that I am averse to shelling out a few bucks to support good software, but I'd like to see the different options open to me before I take the plunge.

My main problem right now is learning the capabilities of the various options. Ideally I want to be able to, for example, say: OK, I want to start with a continent that is roughly rectangular,but narrower on the west side, and then let the S/W create that for me with fractal coastlines and bays and inlets and other typical geographical features. Then I'd say,wait, I want to carve a big chunk out of the east side for an inland sea, that is roughly circular and about a certain radius, then let the S/W handle the nitty gritty detailed work. Then I might say: OK this part of the cost is important,so I need to be able to edit it just so. Similarly with cities, I would say create a city with the palace up against the mountains and the town surrounding the walls. But, the town market is important to the story,so I need to be able to edit it exactly, while letting the S/W handle the rest of the town. Anyway, I hope that wasn't too confusing. Basically I want the S/W to be able to create areas automatically, but under some general constraints, but also be able to let me edit specific areas as needed. That may be too much to ask of the available S/W,but being an ignorant noob, I just don't know and thus have to specify my ideal,then start learning what's what.

I'm not sure Gimp is the answer to what you need. I'm not actually sure what might do what you want, tbh. Obviously working with something like Gimp gives you complete control over what you create, and there are numerous tutorials at the Guild that can help you get going. But there is little in the way of automation, at least, not the 'click a button and it'll happen' kind. You can paint out rough shapes for continents and run through a few steps and Gimp can create fractal coastlines, but it'll still need some work from you. Town maps are a whole other thing and much would depend on the level of detail you want. But there would still need to be a lot of manual work & input.

I can only suggest you download a couple of tutorials and give them a try. If you feel it's not the direction you want to go in, well, it'll only have cost you a little time and at least you'll know you can rule out standard image editors and look to something like Campaign Cartographer. We've got a bunch of PDF tutorials here. The 'Hand-Drawn Mapping (for the Artistically Challenged)' tutorial is always popular and might be a good place for a new mapmaker to start.

If you've got more questions about CC, I'm sure Mouse will be able to help you. She's the champ of that program!

[Mouse]

Why thank you ChickPea I'm not so sure that being a champion of something means I'm necessarily the best, however. There are a lot of CC3 users here at the Guild, and some of them have drawn maps I just would have no idea how to start! LOL!

Gildor - I use both CC3 and GIMP. I tend to use them together these days - exporting from one to the other and back again.

If I want to do just a quick map I use CC3 because it takes a fraction of the time. If I want to be able to draw my own cliffs, gorges, mountains and trees one by one, or if I want to incorporate a large amount of art in the form of original hand drawn bitmap images that I can edit in situ I use GIMP.

I have one major observation in the comparison between the two. In my opinion CC3 might have something of a learning curve, but GIMP is definitely not the soft option.

EDIT:

Costlines in CC3 are instantly editable, and can be fractalised at the click of a button. Whereas in GIMP you are likely to just have to keep redrawing the coastline until you get it right. I might be wrong, but I've never heard of an automatic coastline tool in GIMP.

CC3 itself has several sets of ready made symbols - anything ranging from mountains, through trees to town and city icons, sea creatures and cartouches. The CC3 add-on City Builder 3 has automatic streets, automatic buildings with accurate roof shading, and I think it also has automatic cities (not sure on that last point because I prefer to paste my buildings individually).

The best thing you can do is plunge into the tutorials for GIMP and download the software to have a play, and also use the trial for CC3 to compare notes on the two for yourself - remembering that it is necessary to work through the manual example if you ever wish to be proficient with the software

Here are a couple of extracts from my CC3 maps. The first is an overland map drawn entirely from the built in symbols and fills, and the second comes from a top view dungeon style map - shown here to illustrate a very small selection from the vast collections of freely available 3rd party symbol and fill sets

Rivers and trees.JPG

Roadpaths.JPG

[Gildor]

I'm not sure Gimp is the answer to what you need. I'm not actually sure what might do what you want, tbh. Obviously working with something like Gimp gives you complete control over what you create, and there are numerous tutorials at the Guild that can help you get going. But there is little in the way of automation, at least, not the 'click a button and it'll happen' kind. You can paint out rough shapes for continents and run through a few steps and Gimp can create fractal coastlines, but it'll still need some work from you. Town maps are a whole other thing and much would depend on the level of detail you want. But there would still need to be a lot of manual work & input.

I can only suggest you download a couple of tutorials and give them a try. If you feel it's not the direction you want to go in, well, it'll only have cost you a little time and at least you'll know you can rule out standard image editors and look to something like Campaign Cartographer. We've got a bunch of PDF tutorials here. The 'Hand-Drawn Mapping (for the Artistically Challenged)' tutorial is always popular and might be a good place for a new mapmaker to start.

If you've got more questions about CC, I'm sure Mouse will be able to help you. She's the champ of that program!

You certainly may be right that Gimp is not the right program (for me anyway). I am doodling around using Gimp,based on some the tutorials on the forum, so I am just beginning to learn where my limits are vs the limitations in the software. I am not afraid of some manual work, but since I am slow in such things, I just want to be able to invest my time where it counts.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of resources for me to try. I understand that have to just jump in and start doing things (and I am), so I appreciate your patient responses to my rather rambling requests. At this point I am sure there are questions I don't even know to ask, but you and Mouse have given me a good place to start.

[Gildor]

Why thank you ChickPea I'm not so sure that being a champion of something means I'm necessarily the best, however. There are a lot of CC3 users here at the Guild, and some of them have drawn maps I just would have no idea how to start! LOL!

Gildor - I use both CC3 and GIMP. I tend to use them together these days - exporting from one to the other and back again.

If I want to do just a quick map I use CC3 because it takes a fraction of the time. If I want to be able to draw my own cliffs, gorges, mountains and trees one by one, or if I want to incorporate a large amount of art in the form of original hand drawn bitmap images that I can edit in situ I use GIMP.

I have one major observation in the comparison between the two. In my opinion CC3 might have something of a learning curve, but GIMP is definitely not the soft option.

EDIT:

Costlines in CC3 are instantly editable, and can be fractalised at the click of a button. Whereas in GIMP you are likely to just have to keep redrawing the coastline until you get it right. I might be wrong, but I've never heard of an automatic coastline tool in GIMP.

CC3 itself has several sets of ready made symbols - anything ranging from mountains, through trees to town and city icons, sea creatures and cartouches. The CC3 add-on City Builder 3 has automatic streets, automatic buildings with accurate roof shading, and I think it also has automatic cities (not sure on that last point because I prefer to paste my buildings individually).

The best thing you can do is plunge into the tutorials for GIMP and download the software to have a play, and also use the trial for CC3 to compare notes on the two for yourself - remembering that it is necessary to work through the manual example if you ever wish to be proficient with the software

Here are a couple of extracts from my CC3 maps. The first is an overland map drawn entirely from the built in symbols and fills, and the second comes from a top view dungeon style map - shown here to illustrate a very small selection from the vast collections of freely available 3rd party symbol and fill sets

Wow! Absolutely gorgeous maps. I love on the overland map how the coast, hills, forests, and mountains all blend together naturally without it being "stamped in" looking. Impressive!

It is good to know that CC allows me to modify its output using other S/W such as Gimp. I don't like closed systems where I am locked into using just one way of doing things. The flexibility is a big plus in my book.

And yes, you and ChickPea are right. I just have to jump in and start following tutorials and learning what I can and can't do. I have started looking at a few tutorials, though I am still at bottom of the learning curve looking up. Not a problem in itself, but it will just take me some time to get where I want to go. I can foresee getting CC sometime in the future,especially with the results you show in your message.

Thank you again for all your advice and links to resources.

[Mouse]

Thank you Gildor

Just to clarify a couple of things:

The blending in the overland map you see above is achieved by using CC3's sheet effects. These are roughly equivalent to GIMP Filters or Photoshop Layer effects, but I didn't understand them well enough to use them proficiently for a couple of months when I first started drawing CC3 maps. First maps in CC3 tend to look a lot less blended - a bit more 'stamped in', as you say, but at least you can see from my example that it doesn't have to look that way.

CC3 is a vector programme. When I use GIMP to modify a CC3 map, I export a simple JPG or PNG file from CC3, which I then open in GIMP as a single layer image. Its possible to export separate sheets from CC3 and recombine them in GIMP as separate layers, but the transition from CC3 sheets to GIMP layers is quite a time consuming exercise.

If you do decide to go down the road of choosing CC3, There are quite a few of us here who can help you learn the way after you've done the example in the manual, and there's an even bigger reservoir of skill and experience of CC3 over at the Profantasy Forum.