For lack of a better place: A proposal

[Eilathen]

In light of recent happenings (in particular : the ban of chick) i wanted to make a suggestion/a proposal:

Many big forums (like ours here) have a subforum dedicated to the workings of the forum and to contact "the staff" with questions and problems etc. . Also it is a place where "the staff" communicates problems and news to the members (news as in: bans and why they happened, other problems of administration etc. ).

I think we need something like that as well. It gives us a place to communicate on the dealings of the forum (which is meta in its theme to the real purpose of the whole guild (the mapping and stuff) ).

Especially with such delicate topics as member bans or similar personal stuff it is good to be open and communicative (at least imo). It's toxic if it seems as if "the staff" can do as it pleases behind the scenes and it seems they have no one they're accountable to.

I want to make clear that i am not accusing any of the staff of doing that! They do a good job of running things here and i am around the CG for over 7 years and i have never seen a member ban until now. But i do think it would help to have such a place...because now the speculation starts and it is discussed in the map-threads where it, imo, does not belong.

Let me know what you think (CL and normal memebers).

E.

[Deadshade]

Personnally I find that a good idea even if I have not been here a very long time like you.
I think bans happen but generally nobody notices it.
But when it happens to an active, well known and creative member then it is worrying and people start feeling unwell. I was certainly surprised because my experience with Chick both in threads and PMs has been excellent.

[lostatsea]

There is a couple of places (Home page and News forum)where the Moderators and Community leaders can and do sometimes post news. These are pretty much one way however. One can always post a PM to one of the CLS . Deadshade : I believe I remember a couple of years ago a Cl remarking "only One person had been banned since the guild was founded". This besides spammers who are automatically weeded out for the most part. This is the first time since I have been here that I've seen anyone banned.
Under the FAQ link at the top of the page there is a set of rules as to what behavior will not be tolerated here at the guild. Like most things here it is leniently enforced. Check out PRYME8 last post here. He was very unhappy with the guild members for their votes on a contest he was involved in earlier this year. He hasn't been heard of since by his own choice. He wasn't banned however. I don't know the particulars that lead to this banning but when the CLS are ready I am sure a statement will be issued.

[Chick]

Hi Everyone!

I would love it if the person who banned me would actually explain the truth about why, but I doubt that will happen.

That said, in my humble opinion, I think it would be a mistake to publicly post such information. A person's right to privacy is more important than that everyone knows the details of such things.

As for me, I don't plan to post any explanations, and will probably just go on like it never happened. If anyone really cares about the full story, my email address is in my profile.

Thank you very much to all the people who even noticed that I was gone, it really helped to know that some people were distressed.

Cheers,
Cornelia

[Ascension]

Greetings all. Those of you who have joined here during my lengthy hiatus probably have little idea of who I am or who I was but, yes, I am a CL. I recently came back to The Guild and I am trying to get myself back up to speed with the day-to-day workings of things. I guess you could say I'm old-school in that I was here way back when so my approach might seem a little alien as compared to how things have been going while I was awol. I've chatted with some of the CLs and here is how we see things (more or less). The other CLs might jump in with additions but I was the first to pen a response (that I ran by the other CLs) so I get to be the messenger.

We have the Report button and private messages and there's a Contact Us link at the bottom of every page that gets sent to the CL subforum. The Community Leader subforum is where we discuss things so that no one can do what they feel willy-nilly. We work like a democracy behind the scenes sort of like a President and his cabinet members or Prime Minister and ministers. We also serve as the firemen and psychologists and carpenters and salesmen. Everything we do is discussed and planned and thought through from a bunch of different perspectives. What you propose is transparency; a subforum where we tell you what happened and why on these various administrative things. Trust me, that would be very boring and we'd also get a lot of opinions and discussion on relatively trivial matters. We already have a ton of discussion from all of the CLs. It's sort of like "you never want to know how your hamburger is made". We could make a post explaining what we did and why we did it then lock it to prevent further discussion but that seems kind of pointless. We do all sorts of little administrative things every day: banning spammers, moving things around, fixing broken things, editing typos, planning future things, watching all the comments just to keep an eye on things, giving out awards, etc. and people never see it. Heck, most of us CLs don't see it either because whoever gets there first takes care of most of it. Like, right now, I see no reports of spam needing to be killed or posts needing to be moved or whatever - someone already did that but I don't know who. It's a thankless job but it has to get done so we do it and go about the other stuff. I'm not against the idea I'm just saying that it's a mundane, and usually ugly, thing. We do bring the major items out for general discussion - bugs, snafus, future plans, etc. However, we prefer to keep discussion about bans a private matter because it is usually between two parties and they would prefer to keep things quiet and not made a public issue... too messy. We don't need a bunch of comments that will only exacerbate things. Some people will see it one way and others will see it a different way and then they start bickering and soon everyone has a bruised ego. Normally we tell people to knock it off and act like grown-ups and that's enough to settle things down. Sometimes we issue warnings and only rarely do we ban anyone other than spammers. The important thing to make note of is that what you see publicly is one thing but what happens in private messages is another thing. We can't monitor the content of private messages unless someone reports it.

We do everything we can to make sure that no one gets too big for their britches - members and CLs alike. Veteran trusted members or those with a high reputation are given more leeway. Naturally. They have earned that respect. You don't get respect by being a constant turd. We also try to make sure that a heavy-hitter doesn't go throwing their weight around on the novices. We try to prevent that kind of bullying so that's why we all work and discuss behind the scenes. As a Community Leader it's our job to be cordial, professional, instructional, and positive while avoiding taking sides - even more so when we are one of the sides involved. Behind the scenes we all have our opinions and prejudices so we discuss them so that publicly we move as one. We carry the power so we can't abuse it. We CLs get kind of testy if one starts taking things into his/her own hands without running it by the others. That's not how we work here.

Bans happen for 8 reasons (that I can think of off the top of my head): spamming, public or private harassment, repeated failure to follow rules, plagiarism, repeated sexual advances, physical threats, trolling or flaming, and being a general all-around jerk-off. We give warnings first but if you keep doing these things we have no choice but to give a temporary 3-day ban. If the temporary ban doesn't change your behavior then we have to go with the permanent ban. We have handed out permanent bans of prolific and/or popular members in the past and we do so somewhat reluctantly... but sometimes it just has to be done. I can vaguely remember the number being way higher than 1... more like a dozen or so permanent bans and scores of temporary bans.

The incident in question I can not comment on and I would advise the parties to not comment either - what is said publicly or privately is between them and the CLs overseeing it. If they would like to discuss it in a neutral forum for the CLs to monitor then I could go for that (sort of like a kangaroo court where both sides present their beef with the other side) but to make that discussion open for all eyes to see and comment on would be to invite further problems and foster resentments. I have no idea how we would set that up, though. If a person gets a ban then they should be given a reason for it. We have a broad range of ages and maturity levels here. Would you want some guy with 10 posts chiming in on a debate between two people with 1,000 posts or would you want a 14-year old getting in on an argument between two 50-somethings or would you want some snarky little snert taking the side opposite you and the whole time you're thinking "mind your own business"? That's a big can of worms I'd rather not open. Most of the time a little discussion in front of neutral parties can quiet these things down and it always comes down to one of two things, "we'll agree to disagree so let's move on" or, "I misinterpreted what you meant".

Any time you have a beef with someone bring it to the CLs first. Don't go off into private messages and start antagonizing. If someone starts up on you then don't respond - bring it to the attention of a CL. I know it sounds like baby-sitting but it's the formalized way we handle things here so that everyone can be kept out of trouble - the two parties and the CLs making a decision on the matter. It doesn't matter if you have 2,000 reputation points or 2 posts. If you have an opinion on the incident in question, or any other incidents for that matter, I would advise keeping that opinion to yourself or discussing it with a CL. There is the "Report" button (little triangle under the post) you can click any time you think someone has stepped out of line - those are the first things we always check - or you could message a CL. Feel free to give your encouragement to whatever party you support but do so in private messages. Under no circumstance should you private message the other party and tell them off. You'll get a warning and you flirt with a ban if you do so. I don't know how things have been functioning here for the past few years but since the place hasn't burned down I assume that things have been going pretty well. Know that I do watch every single comment made and I will discuss things with the other CLs before any action is taken rashly. In fact, we all watch every comment made. We have safeguards to prevent CLs from over-stepping their bounds - mainly, the other CLs. So if something happens, or doesn't happen, it is because we made it so and were given a good reason to do so.


~A~

[Wingshaw]

Thank you Ascension for that clear and persuasive explanation of CL behaviour.

One thing I would like to mention though, although I am not much in favour of Eilathen's idea (despite transparency never being a bad thing), can I suggest that perhaps every subforum--maybe even every page--could have a bright red (or similarly obvious) link to a comprehensive and up-to-date list of CG rules.

THW

[Ascension]

I think that is a good idea. I had a bit of a time trying to find the rules myself. They are in the FAQ section and are quite vague. I think they need a bit of updating and there should probably be some CL rules so that you all can hold us accountable.

[Chick]

Perhaps a way to appeal something one felt was quite unfair?
And how can any CL be held accountable for something that no one else knows about?
I'm virtually certain (due to timing) that no other CL was consulted before I was banned, the ban said "no reason was specified", and yet not one of them contacted me to find out my side of any story that might have been told.

[Jaxilon]

For as long as I have been here I can only think of 1 person who was a member and permanently banned. To be honest, I don't think we have a real issue here. It won't hurt to go over the rules however and update them if need be just to make sure everyone is on the same page. I think it would be unhelpful to post everything about private matters and would only amount to creating more drama than anyone wants. We all love this place and want it to be a haven for map making excellence rather than an argumentative dogfight. We want to exchange ideas and help one another advance in skills, knowledge and so on.

Just some thoughts in addition to what Ascension already stated:

It is human to be curious about something that catches us off guard. The recent three day ban naturally might have come as a surprise for some as the comments and questions seem to indicate, it is after all not an everyday occurrence.

Some may ask if authority is being abused? My short answer, “No”.

Unfortunately discussing it in depth is not likely to help matters and is probably more information than anyone really wants. If at all possible things should be encouraged to heal free of any fuel being added to it. There's not any real happiness to be gained in taking sides in this and causing a division.

The reality is that all the things we enjoy about this site are taken care of by volunteers. These community leaders (CLs) have offered to give freely of their time to make sure things run as smoothly as possible. That doesn't mean we are perfect but we do try to make the best decisions possible as a group and for the community. CLs are not chosen lightly. It takes a record of levelheadedness and contribution before we vote to accept a new CL. These individuals take care of spammers, forum cleanups, helping folks use the site, setting up all the challenges both Lite and otherwise, as well as other things. They often are ones who write tutorials, contribute often and all out of a love for the site and this community.

Now let’s take just one of these tasks:
To create and set up a single challenge is a ton of work. From locking threads, setting up a voting poll complete with thumbnails, clearing the forum for a new challenge, moving all the threads to the archive, assigning awards to the winners and posting the congratulations. Prior to all that there is the agony of trying to come up with a challenge. We sift through the list of suggestions trying to pick one that has not been done recently and one that will appeal to as many as possible. We take this very seriously because we want folks to get involved and actively enjoy themselves. Even we want to be inspired. Often times we have to come up with something new ourselves and we try our very best to keep it interesting. For the record, some time back, I was basically the only CL here for a couple months and it about killed me. Just to set up a challenge probably takes about an hour and there have been months in the past where we did not have a challenge at all because there just wasn't anyone with the time to set it up. If you feel entitled to a challenge every month keep this in mind.

As a Software Developer I get paid by the hour and am well aware of what my time is worth. My personal time is worth even more to me than my professional time so when I see others willing to give of themselves taking care of this place I am extremely appreciative. I also feel that while you may not love all of us the position of CL should, to an extent, be respected. Each guild member is able to share their opinions and we have had many lively discussions over the years. Such discussion can help all of us grow but it is important to keep them professional. When a discussion becomes disrespectful of any of our members, be they CL or not, it is our responsibility to not put up with it. If someone keeps at it they are invited to take their conversation elsewhere on a permanent basis, regardless of how loved or prolific they are.

One of the things that is bothering me with the recent challenge is what seems to be a lack of foresight. Over the years we have had only a few sponsored challenges but they are typically a nice change of pace. You would think the opportunity to have actual prizes would be embraced. The fact that you are not inspired by a particular challenge or prize is no reason to complain. By all means add an idea to the suggestions thread for next time. Many months have passed with challenges I wasn't into. Many others went by without me because I had no time to participate even though i really wanted to. Additionally, that a professional company is willing to offer sponsorship to our community only serves to promote this great site we have come to know and love. Furthermore, who is to say that the next sponsor to come along won’t offer the greatest prize you could ever want? Unfortunately, at this point, I believe the chances of that are very small due to the complaining of some.

This site is designed to encourage artistic endeavors revolving around something we all enjoy and love. I for one have learned and gained a lot from this community. I promise you I have absolutely no interest in seeing it turn into a place for drama and infighting. I know I’m not alone in this and I in fact believe that all parties in the middle of this situation feel similar. Someone got what amounts to a timeout, but it’s not that big of a deal unless we choose to make it so.

---
For the record, Robbie is the owner of the site, he pays for it, so if you ever want a final say on anything feel free to look him up and shoot him an email. I don't know of a time when it was ever necessary however and I'm sure that's why he set up Community Leaders. Still, he'd be the King if it ever came down to it.

edit: sorry Ascension I must have been typing when you responded the message that is below this.

[Ascension]

Who would the appeal go to?