Upgraded Mac, Software Issues - GIMP, KRITA & CC3+

[damonjynx]

Hi,

I finally retired my 13 year old Mac and bought a new flashy one to use Roll20, Discord and whatever. Unfortunately, I had Adobe CS4 on the old computer and really liked it but that is 32-bit and the new OS is 64-bit and therefore it doesn't work. I certainly can't afford and have no intention of buying an Adobe subscription.

I downloaded GIMP and the performance is terrible, I have no idea why. There is just an insane amount of lag between my input and the actions on the screen and it is really a poor imitation of Ps. I can forgive somethings as it's free but it drives me insane. Is there a solution?

I've also downloaded Krita which has 0 performance issues in comparison to GIMP. Yet to play with that properly but it looks Ok so far.

Humble Bundle have a great deal on CC3+ $51AUD for CC3+ lifetime license, City Designer, Dungeon Designer and a heap of other content. From what I''ve seen of some sample maps, they look similar, more polished without question, to those created in Dundjinni. But alas, that s Windows only, which means I have to create a Boot Camp partition and load Windows to run it.

I'm at a loss. I want to start creating content, mainly scenarios/modules/adventures, call them what you will, specifically for Roll20 but have no idea of which would be best? Any suggestions?

[Falconius]

Kirta is a very good program. I've been using Paint Studio Paint Ex which you can usually find on sale, and which is not a subscription, it's very pleasant to use and has lots of resources available. They offer a three month trail and a cheaper version as well. That said, I think you should just use Krita a bit more and get deeper into it, to see whether or not you like it. For map specific programs I think you may just have to break down and use a windows partition, that Humble Bumble deal sounds like it might be worth while.

[Tiana]

I would not get the CC3 bundle, having purchased it myself. It is much too convoluted for the limited quality of maps you can make and with the double whammy of being on Mac, not even worth it to you at all when there are similar cost mapping specific programs that you CAN use. If you want to do stamp maps, get Other World Mapper for Mac and don't fuss with the partition. The Mac version is almost identical to the Windows version and a very usable mapping program, while it does not have all the raster editing I want to do with a map for what you describe wanting to do you'll probably find it perfect. Krita fans tend to be very enthusiastic without having a proper realization of its limits, including when I used it, one excruciating limitation which made it unusable for me for anything other than its spectacular paint simulation brushes which I use to make some textures: no "alt/clover becomes the color picker, picks a color, and then goes away" function. It's free. It's limited. You would have to use other programs to get a good map result. Without that eyedropper in and out, digital painting becomes a slog. Maybe they've added it since I used it but that's why I only used it a couple of days and then was like "yeah... I got what I paid for... this is great for a 14 year old but not for a pro"... so now, I use Clip Studio Paint which is good for both Mac and Windows and last I looked, 50% off right now. It is also imperfect. You can only really do comic book text bubbles with it and no other text work.

No program does it all for me... the closest to "does it all" is Adobe, which of course is a subscription package and a hefty learning curve. CC3 has a learning curve and does not do it all. It does 1 specific limited style per pack of assets you get. If you love CC3 maps, then get it and learn it. I don't love CC3 maps. I have found only one tool that impresses me in that package, which is the city block dropper tool, which lets you click a beginning and end point and automatically populates it with any houses in your stream of houses. Um YES PLEASE but can I have that in OWM, where I have confidence the creators are actually listening to my pleas for more and better tools, and not in this nightmare program seemingly from 20 years ago.

Oh yeah if you like free, Photopea is in browser, so it's good for all systems, and it's a Photoshop clone with of course much less functionality, but perfectly good for those basic needs like "I made a drawing of a map in Krita but now I want to put text on it with a stroke around that text and a glow around that text". I've recommended it many times, for what it does it's an excellent tool for beginning artists in many fields. Plus if you get used to it, you'll transition well to Photoshop, the industry standard beloved by many map artists (but not me, because I don't like subscription fees. I just acknowledge it is quite a good map making program for many!)

[garyg]

CC3+ will also run on wine, which I believe works on Macs. There's no need for a separate partition or Windows license. And the ProFantasy support is great!

[waldronate]

Believe me, the CC3+ developers are listening. Change is slow when you're trying not to break many years of backwards compatibility.

[Mark Oliva]

Tiana's is a pretty good analysis that cuts through advertising and fan-user fog to put things into a good perspective. For what it's worth, I have CC3+ with most of the add-ons, FM8 and FM9 Beta, OWM and the GIMP. The one place where I would take exception to your conclusions is with OWM ... a program that I rate highly ... but one that is vector-oriented and somewhat weak with raster cartography, which appears to be what the majority of users here prefer.

Servus,

[Tiana]

I agree OWM is weak with raster cartography, and I have been in contact with them several times to request more raster features. I want to hand draw mountains, so I end up just exporting my landmass, drawing over top of it, and then exporting my lineart as a png into the features folder, then repositioning the pieces in OWM which is definitely convoluted. (Or if the land/water is approved I just save it in Clip). I want to do the quintessential texture sandwich, which has to be done in Clip. Some of my requests have made it into the program which is why I hold them in high esteem and recommend the program. I expect that given a decade of work everything they feel is possible that I've asked for will eventually be there, as long as it suits their vision. Of course, I also expect that it'll take ages. Their team is only one or two people as far as I've noticed. I expect the same is true of ProFantasy and similarly have no expectations of speedy changes, but slow evolution over the course of years as they implement what they have the ability to within their framework. But yes, while I recommend it as a basic mapper program, there are many things I like to do that are simply impossible in that program, and likely any mapping specific time saving program. I will be honest: to get a result I'm happy with, I have to use 2+ programs and it's definitely convoluted. However, if one of my clients asks me to change the shape of the landmass 6 steps into the design on a raster program, I have to rip apart the whole thing. I have saved hours since I included OWM in my workflow, and it's always come up when someone says "sorry but can you make the north just a bit taller and remove that island off the western coast and add a little bit of a cove there instead?"

CC3 is vector mapping only, as far as I can tell. Now I'm sure they are indeed listening, and yes, change is slow in all programs because programming is hard, and old fans want things that new artists turn up their noses at because they're used to Illustrator CC and nothing else will do... I'm not judging them for any speed of implementation. They were cutting edge once and if you don't have an Adobe sized budget things don't change at an Adobe rate, and even their programs are slow to evolve for the better and full of complicated clunk making several of them notoriously hard to learn. And they're an improvement from what came before for desktop publishing...

Now, for someone who doesn't draw or do digital art already, I think CC3 is a highly promising choice, the most amount of assets available for it... far more and better assets than OWM comes with by default... but with no way to integrate my large base of raster resources and constant confusion, it just frustrates me very quickly. Except for the city block tool. Damn... that's a brilliant tool... I honestly think that tool alone IS worth the whole humble bundle fee I paid. If you have no preconceptions of workflow, it's probably a good choice. You can, with nothing more than that humble bundle, just make a good looking map. Wonderdraft is also spoken well of but I can't say I've tried it yet. Same with Dungeon Fog. I hear a lot about it these days, and I think it's browser-based? Subscription based with World Anvil. The results are real pretty. I haven't tried it but I am impressed by its output. I mean, World Anvil is powerful all on its own, not enough to sway me to subscribe but I do respect what they've done and it seems like their dungeon mapper has some really unique features, it isn't fair to mention mapping specific programs and not give them a nod. Multi-level dungeons is some mad props DM organizational idea... which of course can be mimicked with layer folders in any raster image editing program. It's preloaded with many things... but you're stuck with those things. I really should give Wonderdraft a whirl. It is often well spoken of for a cheap mapper. But every Wonderdraft map looks like a Wonderdraft map so I suspect it has the same preloaded problem, where what you see is what you get. Great for speed but you better like the resultant style because that's what it looks like every time.

If they wanted to exclusively create raster maps, really any program will do! Gimp, Paint.net, Krita, Paint Tool Sai, Photoshop, Photo Paint, Paint Shop Pro, Painter, Photopea, Affinity... if it has layers, and the ability to do a stroke around a shape, and the ability to put down text and the ability to customize your brushes, you're good to go. For me, layer blend modes are critical. And being able to outline your selection in some way automatically, a huge timesaver. Since most raster programs do that, people can make maps in any of them, with some strange leaps in logic every now and again compared to just drawing on paper with pencil and pen.

If they just wanted to slap down some maps for their campaign and are okay with a learning curve that's about as steep as Illustrator... not as bad as Blender... I mean, why not, CC3 is on sale for less than $50, that's peanuts for a one time program purchase, and it does have a high variety of built in stamps. I'm not mad they get some of my money, it's for a good cause and they've done a lot for the development of mapping programs over the years, we likely wouldn't see programs like OWM without the inspiration of CC3.

The program does seem to be quite featured in many places. In places it does have that slick workflow I want. Populating your world with features is so fast. It removes any of the struggle someone might have had with a village map. But then it also takes 4 clicks to get to a custom color of my choosing...

I'm probably going to give Campaign Cartographer another chance. I want to like it. I know that buried under its quirks is a reasonably powerful map program. I want to be able to use what it does well, but then, that's yet another program added into my stack... I can really see using it for quicker city assembly in the future though.

Honestly, don't let me sway you, if you want to try it... I'm not angry that the program exists, they've done a lot for the digital mapping community over the years and it wouldn't be what it is today without ProFantasy. I might feel completely differently if it were my first mapping program experience and I wasn't accustomed to how one program does it, and if I weren't primed with now almost two decades of expectations of how a digital art program experience should feel when drawing. I grew up on Paint Shop Pro. You could probably make a map with it, if you wanted. I got so used to the convoluted logic used in making maps in a raster program... I like this newfangled addition of mapping specific programs... I feel like they're great for the unskilled to just dive right in, without needing to know how to draw or master a vector program with its own convoluted logic. But, I feel like the best is still yet to come. World Creator is the first program that's truly excited me for world creation (what an apt name) but I can't in good faith recommend it to the average mapper because of how expensive it is compared to all of the other programs. I feel like its intuitive erosion is an excellent step in the direction I'd like to see more of. It simply doesn't behave as needed to make a 2D map, though, but ah, to have some of those 3d dynamic modelling procedural tools in a way that also captured the aestetic of the fantasy map and managed its assets in a reasonably organized fashion... now there's a program for someone who isn't me to make in the future. Procedural erosion, man, that's what I really love.

Since I'm rambling, I forgot, there's a fun new freebie I ran into. DungeonScrawl. It does one style of dungeon only but what a cool toy. Exports SVGs, copyright is CC0 for your results. Give that a whirl to make a basic black and white traditional hatched dungeon shape. Maybe eventually they'll add furniture and it'll actually be useful but it's a fun toy now, to make a base to customize. Have fun with that!

[Redrobes]

Dont know if this is the same thing but when you asked for a tool that fills in a line with a selection of houses then it brought to mind paint shop pro's image pipes. I just did a check for Gimp and it has similar too:

https://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Image_Pipes/

I recall I made a similar feature for my mapping app but mine would only take the one current icon you were holding and randomly size and rotate copies and you moved it. Mine was done more for trees, bushes etc rather than houses. But with a pipe you had a selection of icons lined up and it would drop them in. So maybe that would be useful to try out.

[damonjynx]

Thanks for the advice & tips folks. I’m strongly leaning towards cc3+ for these reasons:
1. It comes with Overland, City & Dungeon mapping capabilities.
2. I am no digital artist. I struggle with many aspects, apart from the actual drawing, colouring and shading are my bane.
3. I wasn’t overly impressed with the maps done in some of the YouTube tuts but after googling cc3 maps-images, I did find quite a few I liked.
4. My commission work is primarily old-school style dungeon maps and I feel I won’t be disadvantaged using this program.
5. I also want to produce quality maps quickly and while it does have a learning curve, so does every graphics program I’ve looked at.

I’ll probably try the Wave ootion.

[heruca]

Humble Bundle have a great deal on CC3+ $51AUD for CC3+ lifetime license, City Designer, Dungeon Designer and a heap of other content. From what I''ve seen of some sample maps, they look similar, more polished without question, to those created in Dundjinni.

I think Dundjiini-made maps tend to look better than CC3 maps, even after all these years. There are occasional exceptions, but comparing output from a typical user of each app, I think DJ maps tend to look better.